The founder in the guest chair, telling the origin story.

0:00ABack to Let’s Talk About Web Three. We’re in season three, episode two with our guest Maceo. I got my co-host here, Onaji B.

0:08BYes, sir.

0:09ADoing well. As we always start off, we like to start off with a little bit of gratitude. This week, I am grateful for the opportunity to share what we’re building. I feel like this week already -- it’s Wednesday -- has been an amazing opportunity so far for. 3 or 4 different unique communities that I’m not normally a part of, um, for us to share, shared something or other, um, that was, uh, that was new this week. So I’m just grateful for that opportunity. Um, it’s already been a really cool week. Um, B, what are you grateful for this week?

0:43BHonestly, I’m, I’m grateful this week. I’m grateful for right now for tech, man. Not gonna lie. Like the, the ability to connect with homies like in this room right now. Like, it’s understated. And I did a stream earlier today and I was outdoor, sunny LA, chilling, vibing on Wi-Fi, you know, streaming clear cameras. Like, you know, I’m really grateful for tech. Like, you know, sometimes people will be like, it’s a crutch. Humans are falling out of their, you know, their personal, you know, communication and things like that. It’s like, no, a lot of homies out here are utilizing it to connect with each other digitally. globally, you know what I’m saying? So I’m really thankful for that. It’s a really cool time, you know, but maybe I’m just an old head. I’m an old head and I remember a time without the internet type vibes. We was outside playing. So I’m really, I’m really grateful for tech. What about you, Marcel? What’s good? What you grateful for, man?

1:38CUm, I would say I’m grateful for community today. You know, I had a fantastic meeting earlier today with my mentor for a couple hours. I got to educate about blockchain, Bitcoin, Ethereum this morning on the NASA Africa community. I’ve only educated maybe once or twice on this kind of stuff, so it was pretty dope to get that experience. You know, I got somebody reach out to me about a job supporting on like a startup working in the law space just out of the blue yesterday. And I’m just seeing myself growing and developing in whole new ways because people are showing up and extending opportunities just like this, right, to come and speak. So I’m grateful for community today.

2:11AHell yeah. Well, I like that. Let’s get started. Well, we see Freeze in the building. Shout out to you, Freeze. I had a little stream earlier today with Freeze where we did a little card ripping. Um, I did some digital card ripping, he did physical card ripping. It was pretty cool. Um, Europe’s actually a $200 card, so that was like, uh, 10x technically on a $20 pack. So in crypto terms, uh, cards -- The Pokémon cards, uh, is what he was opening, and I was opening up Pokémon and football PSA graded cards with the, uh, the new beta power packs thing that’s going on. collectibles that I’m excited about. But, um, but enough of that. I’m excited to get, um, to chatting with you, Maceo. Um, you know, my first question, as always with most people, how’d you get into blockchain? Like, what got you to this space here today to start even thinking about WeThem Media?

3:05CYeah, that’s a good question. How did I get into blockchain? Um, I would say I got into blockchain in college. My college roommate, he was trading NFT PFPs And he like was on the whitelist for some projects like Doodles actually, and he was up like $60K. And I was like, dang, how do I -- like, where am I at? Like, where -- like, what do I got to do to play in this, in this league? So, you know, just jumping on his bandwagon, asking questions. He got me into some DAOs, helped me get an ENS domain ahead of that airdrop. That airdrop kind of was like my green light, like I’m here to play. Gave me some house money, and that’s kind of what kicked me off.

3:40BExcellent. That’s a, that’s a good onboarding. It’s like, you see, you know, those collections, the doodles going crazy. That’s cool, man. I was on the outside of doodles. Um, I’m a huge fan of Burnt Toast, like pre-Web3, you know, on the IG side. And like, just to see artists kind of tackle this space and hop into it and utilize the tech, man. And I don’t know how much you’ve been tapped in with his journey, but you know, he’s diving into like the AI side too. And just, you embracing it, you know, one of those can’t beat it, join it type vibes. And he’s diving heavily in, which is really cool. So --

4:12CAnd Burnt Toast is the artist behind Doodles?

4:14AYes.

4:16COh word, yeah, I didn’t even know that.

4:17BYeah, he is. He’s a super cool guy, you know, super talented. Yeah, I’ve been following him for a long time, since like, I want to say like 2012, ’13. Like, it’s been a minute. Yeah, he’s super talented.

4:28CThat’s pretty dope. I didn’t know that. What about you two? How’d you two end up in this space?

4:34BGo ahead, Z.

4:35AOh, GameStop for me. Um, Jan 21 -- Jan 28th, 2021, uh, you know, buy button stopped. Learn more about the financial system and how that’s probably, you know, pausing the game, you know, changing the rules and then unpausing it for, you know, us poors. Um, and that was an interesting moment for me in learning more about debanking and slowly over time, uh, learning about why it matters. I’ve been working with musicians, so it was kind of like perfectly hand in hand and helping fix the music industry as well. So it’s kind of like perfect for the financial and the musical industry, and that’s kind of why I came here. Well, what about you, B?

5:17BMan, I’m a, I’m an OG. I should be rich a million times over. Got all the homies on the yacht with me, but I’m one of those kids kicking myself. Um, I found out about, you know, Satoshi white paper back in, you know, ’08, getting up -- we’re coming up to the anniversary, Halloween. Yeah, 2008 Halloween.

5:36CIt hadn’t even launched yet.

5:38BCorrect. So yeah, man, but, uh, everything happens for a reason, you know. Hindsight’s always 20/20. But, um, yeah, I talked about that story quite a bit. Um, Gizmodo, Lifehacker -- I don’t know if you guys know, like, the Gawker blogs and stuff like that. I found out about -- I found out about this tech back then, way back then. Yeah, you know, before the buying stuff, it was like I’m trying to convince me and my homies, you know, family to get into mining. You know, I remember researching graphics cards during that first shortage and all that good stuff to try to build some rigs, whatever. I was trying to learn all of it.

5:38BDidn’t really get in, but then heavily, you know, I was just watching from the outside, watching the peaks, valleys, and all that good stuff. And then once, you know, 2015, ’16, ’17, I started to see a bunch of the artists like Burnt Toast start dabbling in the space, talk about Web3, talk about NFTs, and I was like, wait a minute. Now we’re pairing art to this blockchain that I saw so long ago, and I was like, okay, I’m in, because I got a heavy graphic design background. I’m like, cool. So like 19, 20, 21, I’m looking for communities, trying to vibe, didn’t see anything that I rock with.

5:38BSo, you know, ’22, or, you know, summer ’21, brainstorming, I’m like, cool, just to build our own table, build our own collection. You know, the Apes are going crazy. I’m like, that ain’t really for me. So Built Onagi the OG, launched that January 22. Rest is history, man. Onagi University kind of came about February because a bunch of the homies are like, “We love what you’re doing. We love the art. We love the artists. We love Prime. We love all that good stuff.” I don’t know what the hell you talking about. You talking Ethereum, MetaMask wallets, all this good stuff, gas fees, GUE. Like, bro, what?

5:38BSo we pivoted into the education side February 22. Did our Onagi U Saturdays, getting those chats going. The rest was history, man. Hmm, yes sir.

7:29AWell, so from that -- I was gonna say, from that initial point, Maceo, then what is that journey from, you know, entering the blockchain space to thinking, okay, you know, I need to build We Them Media? What would -- what prompted that, and, and how’d you get to that point?

7:45CSo I had a podcast I was already thinking about for like maybe a couple months before I got into crypto, right? We Them Niggas. I wanted to start this podcast. I wanted to somehow create value for Black people and Black culture and just like have more conversations around this like super provocative language, um, which I felt was very resonant with me and some of my friends at the time. There you go. And, you know, I feel like I came out of Black spaces in high school, really like, like predominantly Black space, and I feel like people use that word all the time. And I felt like I went into this predominantly white college and I almost found myself censoring myself.

7:45CBut I felt like, you know, how do I navigate, you know, what I’m learning about my own identity? And so I feel like as I got into crypto, I already have this idea of this podcast, and I didn’t really see much content about crypto. Like, I got this airdrop, now what? Like, I don’t know anything. I’m like looking up crypto projects on YouTube, I see Ponzi schemes like OlympusDAO. Like, I’m like, what do I do with an OlympusDAO, right? I just see -- like, I feel like the content that I’m seeing on YouTube isn’t very substantial outside like Whiteboard Crypto. And I definitely didn’t really see any Black people making content that was informative.

7:45CUm, and so myself already wanting to work in the music industry, I’m a rapper as well, I was kind of curious what could it look like to explore that intersection, right, of music and Web3 as like a place I knew I had a real interest. Um, and so honestly, over the next couple months, I was researching protocols, audios, platforms, um, and by the end of my school year, I found water and music. I was in like my philosophy classes researching music crypto every day, like Just trying to figure out what can my career look like because grad school for philosophy didn’t make a lot of sense.

7:45CAnd I didn’t find like a job in crypto. What I found was Water to Music, this music and tech research organization which had gone through, um, what is it called, Seed Club to become a DAO. At the time, Seed Club was a DAO like accelerator. And I was like, okay, so I found this music tech community where I could get paid to contribute is what they told me. And so I paid like $80 or something like that to get a year membership and I jumped in there and asked immediately, how can I contribute? Like, what can I be doing to get paid? Um, and they were interviewing people collecting music NFTs, and I was like, okay, dope.

7:45CSo I was immediately put right in the middle of the meta. Like, people are buying these things, I don’t know why, but I get to find out. So I got to interview people collecting NFTs, which was super dope. I got to really hear what they liked and didn’t like about that user experience, um, and that was just super informative to me. And I just kind of noticed over the time I was doing that that it was a dying meta at the same time. And so while I learned a lot about how that bubble was working and popping, I also was kind of having to reimagine what I’m even doing here now because I learned that the thing I think I want to do is not necessarily feasible.

7:45CUm, and then I was fortunate enough to kind of pivot into just trying to interview Black people in general in crypto.

10:22AMm-hmm.

10:23CAnd somebody who I learned through that community, right, CY Lee, um, was like a major patron of the arts in the crypto space. And so he and I kind of got connected soon after that. Um, he reached out, posted on Twitter looking for somebody to interview, um, an artist he worked with, um, that I didn’t actually end up interviewing, frankly. But, you know, from there we just got to have, you know, more of a relationship, can continue to discuss. And, you know, by FWB Fest, I met him there in person. I was sharing with the community what I wanted to do with my podcast, really with We Them Media at large, think about how could crypto be a way for us to build a new kind of like, like organizational structure for creatives.

10:23CLike, how can a DAO be the new music label? You know, like, how can we, you know, create something that helps more of the value artists are generating go to artists so they can do more community-oriented work, you know, and also give them the resources to have a team that they can actually work with, you know, that’s not inside of a system that is designed to exploit you, right? Music professionals don’t really have anywhere to work but the major music groups if they want benefits and a quality life, right?

11:19BTalk about it.

11:19CWhat could that look like was a big question I was interested in. And I feel like I got funding for a podcast and just kind of ran with it and didn’t really reevaluate what my actual goals were inside of that time because I felt a little bit like scared I was going to lose my funding if I was a little too honest about how overwhelmed I was about, you know, I was looking for a job in crypto and now I have a crypto podcast and like I almost don’t even know necessarily where to go with it or like how to build out a team around it because it wasn’t necessarily long-term to be a crypto podcaster when I started, but more so to delve into that intersection of music and crypto.

11:19CAnd it didn’t really seem like an easy thing to really sell creatives at the time. Like, it’s like, actually, what do you do as a creative here? It’s like, I don’t know what to tell anybody. And so it just became a journey of me interviewing Black people in crypto and learning about their journeys, traveling different conferences from ETH Denver to ETHCC to DevCon last year in Thailand, and just getting to really learn about how this technology is impacting, you know, economies around the world, learning about inflation. I’ve now spent a couple months in Nigeria, a month in Kenya. Um, just really getting to see how this technology is taking shape in different kind of markets around the globe.

11:19CAnd now here I am, you know, trying to look at how do I bring that information to bear on North America and how do I leverage my experience now to tell people I know what I’m talking about and you should know, you know, what’s going on and, you know, be hedging against inflation. Like, no shoulds, right? But there’s an opportunity to hedge against inflation, you know, by dollar cost averaging into these technologies and opportunities.

12:44BBro, I love all of that, man. That’s what I’m talking about. Freestyle, what’s this pod? Um, so we’ll get you the information. We’ll tell the people where to find you at the end. Heck yeah, man. Like, we need more of that. I’m saying, we need more of that, bro. It’s like, and when I was in the beginning, you know, hunting, looking, and deciding to build my own table, like, I was looking for the homies like you. So it’s good to see you here. It’s good to see, you know, you and other people like Zal just hitting the ground running, bro. I didn’t know you were tapped into um, CY, uh, CY Lee like that. I didn’t know. Like, that’s lit, bro. So yeah, everybody’s just -- the networks are spider webbing, connecting together, growing. You’re, you’re tackling it on a global side, in, in the IRL side. You, you flying out to the, to the motherland and all the good stuff. And man, keep going, keep going, bro. Like, so kudos to you. I’m super proud, super, uh, inspired by your journey, bro. Keep killing it. Keep killing it.

13:45CI appreciate that. I appreciate it.

13:47AYeah, yeah, no, it’s honestly dope hearing more about you, uh, like right here. Uh, yeah, dude, uh, I love hearing what people saw before in 2021 when I have conversations with folks, and it’s really interesting to see why different people believe there were challenges in the space at that time, right? Because I didn’t get a firsthand experience of it. I’m only a third-party observer. I couldn’t have gotten one. But every time I get another experience, it’s different, but has like -- everyone’s taken a lesson from it. And I think that’s one of the really cool things about hearing from folks in this space is a lot of people aren’t afraid to share the information that would have helped them in the past to the next generation of folks.

13:47AAnd I think that’s a little bit of different culture than some of society today where it’s a pull the ladder up culture. Like, we’re like, oh man, like, I got challenged by this, so you should also do it, right? Like, um, and I’m curious, like, some of your thoughts on that. And then, like, just tapping in a little bit more with culture. And, like, I know we had a little bit of a conversation in the last, uh, couple days about, uh, you know, I went to a wedding this weekend and just For me, learning a little bit more about my culture and just diving into that, it’s always a blessing to hear when people are excited to share other cultures, especially some of these cultures that don’t have a lot of internet access.

13:47ASo like we just don’t know about them, right? Like people don’t know about all these groups of people that just like haven’t tapped into this like greater economy that we are a part of, but they have their own local groups and their own customs and their own different, you know, ideals and traditions. But yeah.

15:34CSo your question then is really around like how I see like paying knowledge forward and like --

15:41AYeah, yeah, like I, I, yeah, exactly.

15:46CUm, uh, can you restate your question?

15:51AYeah, yeah, no, you’re good. I’m more just mean in terms of just like In learning more about culture, like we’ve had that conversation the last week. I would love to dive in more about like that part of your ethos.

16:03COh, okay. Yeah. I thought you were asking me about like my thoughts on that.

16:07AYeah, no, I was just saying that in general, that’s part of these cultures, right?

16:11CYeah. I mean, you know, I studied psychology and philosophy in undergrad and a big thing for me was I was in the world of studying perception specifically. Right, and how we perceive each other, right? I discussed going from like this predominantly Black environment to this predominantly white environment. And I spent -- you hear me talk -- I spent a lot of time predominantly white environments the majority of my life, right? And so starting to think about how we conceptualize and conceive of difference, and then even, right, how we proceed to construe it in our minds over time, um, became a really big question for me, right? And studying things like intersectional, like, uh, identity and thinking about like, I’m a man, I’m a straight man, I’m a straight Black man from a low-income background.

16:11CAll these different identities impact the way I navigate experience and perceive the world, right? And even the kinds of conversations that are normative, right, in my culture, assuming I hang out with people that are like me. Then you go into the fact that I’ve been in these predominantly white academic environments, and then you have a whole new component and dynamic that I’m just accustomed to, right? And so for me, a big question is how do people see the world given, you know, the body, like the body they occupy? and also the communities they occupy, and then the larger, you know, societies they occupy, right? And what things are normative inside of each of those demographics.

16:11CAnd so I’ve become really interested in conversations for culture that kind of respect or recognize culture as a product of having to navigate those inter -- like those interconnecting realities, right?

17:37AMm-hmm.

17:37CAnd so I’ve become really interested in, you know, what are people’s backgrounds, because their backgrounds give wake to, you know, how they perceive the world they have to navigate, you know, the historical world they’ve had to navigate, right? Your parents are navigating just another iteration of the same, you know, body that you’re navigating to some degree, but likely in a different temporal context, which is, you know, another thing to recognize. And so for me, the conversation for identity is really like -- it kind of ties back even to this notion of we them niggas. Like, for me, we them niggas is like a conversation about the Black identity, but my Black identity is not like, B’s Black identity is not Black Dave’s Black identity, is not Girl Crash or Leo Pastel or my mom or my dad or my grandma even, you know.

17:37CIt’s like a plethora of different kinds of Black identities. Jamie Cornelia, you know, Iman, Iman, you’re up, right? Latasha, like, we’re all navigating this space, but likely from very different lived realities and, you know, different levels of privilege in different ways. And so how does that impact the way that we navigate spaces, the way that we perceive and understand spaces? And even the way that people perceive me, right? Like me being a college-educated Black man from a -- from like a -- like who’s been in a lot of white environments. I speak the way I speak, which affords me a certain level of privilege. And so for me, it’s like inside of all that, there still is, you know, code-switching.

17:37CAnd so there’s things I leave behind when I enter certain rooms that are not things I necessarily like to leave behind or that I actually didn’t start out leaving behind. But when I found myself in Black spaces, I found new modes of expression. And so I’m always curious, like, what are the modes of expression people I’m meeting leave behind in order to navigate the -- what is most often predominantly white culture that we’re participating in?

19:12BOf course.

19:14ADamn, that was deep. Fuck, I have to think about that more. I love that.

19:19CThat was a lot of words.

19:20ANo, no, it was a lot of words, but it was -- everything you were saying was super on the money, and I really am interested more in those things. But it was cool for me to hear from my perspective, um, a little bit about how that is for you. And, you know, you’re talking about your Black culture, but the same thing applies to every single other individual for whatever they --

19:40CRight.

19:41ASo that’s really cool to, to see. And like, it’s different with -- I mean, like, my, my cultural, uh, background and heritage, there’s only like 100,000 of us in the world. So it’s like a significant, even more minority. where it’s like most people, out of all of the people I’ve ever told the name of my religion, I could count on like 2 or 3 hands of people that separately had heard of it, right? So it’s definitely interesting to hear different perspectives on different cultures as well, and understanding that just because, you know, one culture is from one thing, you know, the different things and perceptions and privileges that that person has makes that experience a completely different thing.

20:23CAnd so I’m curious, like, given my interest in that domain, like, what are the things that people frequently don’t know or don’t anticipate, right, about your religion and culture? Like, or like things that maybe people don’t even necessarily want to talk about, right, because of how it might be perceived, right? That makes sense.

20:40AYeah, no, I mean, it’s an amazing point because like I just got -- I just realized today on the GM Fargaster pod, they said you’re probably one of the first people that’s ever been onboarded through a religion. And I was like, oh shit, like, that’s kind of cool. I didn’t really think about it that way. But like, that is a part of my identity. It’s something that I would like to talk about more. But I’m not like, because religion is such an interesting topic and hot topic, I don’t try and like push it, right? Like, asked, of course, I’m very excited to talk about. But, um, but essentially, like, Our religion’s called Zoroastrianism.

20:40AIt’s one of the first monotheistic religions that, you know, predates Judaism and Christianity. And I went to a Catholic school from K to 8, so I have a little bit more Catholicism, like, knowledge through me than, like, most Catholics in America, right? In terms of, like, learning scripture and, like, learning more about, like, everything there in that religion. So that gave me a really interesting perspective because I was seeing the prescriptive culture of Catholicism. You can’t do this, you can’t do that, you can’t do this, you can’t do that. And being a child and like understanding like we are human a little bit, like of course not to like the level I do now, but just like understanding like we’re, we’re kind of kids, right?

20:40AAnd like not gonna be at that same level of maturity as an adult. Um, re -- like, our religion’s faith is basically like, do good words, say, uh, say good words, um, think good thoughts, do good deeds, and that’s all you have to do to get into heaven. You know, don’t listen to the law or this or that, but you know in your good mind and your consciousness, um, what is right and what is wrong, and it’s up to you to be, you know, that individual. So it’s definitely an interesting experience when, like, I went to Catholic school for a lot of my -- like you said, that, like, predominantly white experience in space in a completely different aspect.

20:40ABecause when I was in 6th grade, I spent a -- I spent a month in India studying to become a mobed in our religion, which is a Zoroastrian priest. The way it works in our religion, it’s --

22:59CWhat?

22:59AYeah, exactly. And I don’t get to talk about it a lot, but -- and it’s like, it was a lot, but like -- and there’s been a lot of things that have come from that. But like, it’s a really interesting and unique experience that I’ve had that honestly, at a young age, I was like being pushed and like, oh, you’re like doing bad things and knowing you’re doing bad things. But I’m just like a kid doing these things. So like, really fucked with my mentality for a long time. Um, but I eventually finally figured out and realized Because for me, my dad was our head priest in our like Boston area.

22:59AI was the first priest born in the States in that Boston area. And like we did a lot of communities, community like events and functions, whether it was a first communion type function, like someone entering our faith. I did my sisters and a bunch of our other younger sisters ceremonies with my dad. And also of like, um, just like housewarmings and like these other different events because my dad was kind of the head priest of the area. And like on online, sometimes people would just like find us online and like request. I jumped into a lot of different things to the point where like actually when I was in high school, I did a marriage, right?

22:59AAnd it was really interesting to me, like getting that experience and just being like still a kid and still like learning and needing to mature. But I realized after all of that, in our faith, one of the big things is and was -- it’s kind of changing now with time -- is that back in the day of ancient Persia, you were whatever your father was as an artisan. That’s just like you are whatever your family line is. So the priesthood is usually passed down by family line. So my dad was a priest, his dad was a priest, priest, etc., etc., and so on. And there was this requirement, um, for our faith to be of a priestly line to become a priest.

22:59ASo it was also kind of just a given and something like -- I just like had a unique individual experience that I knew I was just getting from Rip. But like explaining to anyone else that it’s completely foreign and unique experience, not only in our -- in my religion, talking to the other folks in my religion and friends around me, um, but then like to a bigger picture. So yeah, that’s a little bit more about me. And love it. He definitely learned a little bit there too. So yeah, I’m glad you asked.

25:20BAbsolutely, absolutely, man.

25:23CAnd I’m a little bit curious, I have one more follow-up question. Does like you going back to India, decided to be a Mubed, you said, right? Does that give you, right, like a greater level of privilege or recognition in the community being back home now?

25:37AYeah, and that’s like the weird thing for me because it’s like it somewhat feels undeserved, but at a certain point you like learn to be appreciative of the privilege you’ve been given. So like that was a challenge for me from 6th grade until, you know, literally my last year of college when I was for the first time really thinking about like everything mental and like learning about all of this a little bit more. But yeah, no, it’s, uh, it’s definitely an interesting it was, uh, its own challenge growing up. Um, but yeah, no, it’s, uh, it definitely is because I’ve had that unique perspective of just like studying our faith a lot more, and our faith isn’t studied too, too much.

25:37ABut it’s really interesting hearing, like, when I -- the, like, experience I had that onboarded me to crypto was going to New York for our Zoroastrian World Congress, very similar to a crypto event, ironically enough, where it’s like A bunch of kids, like some people going to talks and talking about legit-ass, like super important stuff. And then like the other people, half of the people hungover, like coming back from just the night out and networking and wanting to meet other folks and just have a good time, which, you know, I was a part of both groups in a lot of different ways. And like, I’m not judging of one side or another.

25:37AI don’t really like, you know, going either way too much, right? And that’s that maxi conversation we come back to in blockchain. Right? Where it’s just like being too strong-headed on one side and not being able to change your opinion is just a bad take, period.

27:05BMm-hmm.

27:06AUm, but yeah, like, so like that whole experience was me going to this like world, um, congress, and then that was in New York, so that was a bus ride away. My whole family went to that. That was like my first time being around people in our faith that wanted to know more and knew a lot more culturally than me. Versus like in Boston, it was always like I was like my dad’s son and learning all of my scripture and stuff from him. We don’t have like a pope or like any central figure. So for me, my dad was a huge part of like that father figure in my life.

27:06AAgain, learning to get out of his shadow, learning what I’m uniquely strengthened at, and, you know, sometimes his weaknesses and, and his own challenges, right? Like he’s only a human, even though in our faith, like he was looked on in a very positive light. So It’s awesome. Like, it just gave me that appreciation finally to like take a step back and be like, wow, like everyone has their own issues with their parents, but like in the grand scheme of things, unconditional love, like super blessed, super grateful. Like, that is something that other people don’t have. And realizing that in real life was the biggest like mindfuck for me because like that was normal to me.

27:06AAnd learning that not everyone has that honestly, is a big part of why I’m here today. Like, I met Django and he’d never had -- like, he never had a father figure in his life. And like, that like experience really stuck with me because it was just like I realized like how lost I would be without my dad. Um, and just like that whole experience. But yeah, it’s, it’s always -- it’s an interesting conversation. But I want to definitely bring it back to you. If you have any other questions, you’re welcome to. I love the combo. But, um, because it’s all part of the same thing.

28:43CYeah, I mean, I don’t -- I, I could keep going, but I’m good for the moment, you know.

28:48ABut yeah, I’m good just chit-chatting. Like, that’s, that’s the beauty of these. Like, whatever you want to talk about, we’ll chit-chat. B, you have something too, um, you’re, you’re welcome to, to pop in and say, say anything. But yeah, dude, I love, I love your energy. I’m happy we’re working more together and talking more about things and ways we can collaborate more, because the thing I’ve been trying to find and leverage is how can we, the people who want to give effort, time, and energy to the creators and the independents of the space while being able to give them their own autonomy, independence, and freedom, but still be able to, um, have that culture come back and, you know, um, karma kind of like kick forward, right?

28:48ALike, we always talk about karma and like we can see that in like the karmic value of life in the world world in the big picture, but in like just straight crypto is not there, right? Like, there isn’t -- just because you do something good, like, it’s not coming back to you well. In fact, it’s probably the opposite, right? Like, in terms of like you’re looking at like your other well-being, whether you’re looking at, you know, personal, financial, networking, right? So that’s like a whole interesting other side of it. But yeah, dude, it’s, uh, it’s always good chatting with you.

30:01BI love it. I love it, bro. No, I think it’s real cool just to real quickly just to see, like, you know, get exposed to world religions. So shout out to you all because, like, there’s not a whole lot of, you know, simple focus on be a good human, you know what I’m saying? And I think a lot of, like, larger religions and a lot of people who have been, you know, I grew up Baptist and it’s like the main mission is just be a good human. And the amount of people that can’t grasp that concept and are in these religions and, you know what I’m saying? You know what I’m saying?

30:35CSo.

30:35AThat’s why I like saying spirituality, right? Because it’s like religion, like even atheists can understand spirituality and what that means, right? And I think that’s such a more important thing than whatever your beliefs are, right? Like it, like you said, it should just be to be a good human being and that should transcend all religions, but it doesn’t, right? Because of whatever trauma and things we’ve been pushed on by whatever, right? And, um, it’s an interesting, like, concept. Like, it’s such a, like, challenging topic because it’s like that, you know, religion and politics thing, you don’t talk at the dinner table thing, even though in the last, you know, however many years, I don’t know how true that’s been, um, because how apparent it’s been in my life.

30:35ABut, like, honestly, like, growing up, high school, even in college, like, I was always like, so far removed from politics and wanting to like stay away from it for forever. And then crypto freaking pulled me in and got me to the point of like understanding that like while the whole system and, and people in it are challenging, and, and they’re like just being a leader and being there, like good leaders step in because they know that without them being there it would be worse. And that’s what I’ve realized for myself. I hate responsibility. I hate liability. I love doing just like whatever for the fun of it.

30:35ABut I’ve found like different places that I can see my effort being the best effort being there. And I think like realizing that as well is like a whole different thing. But yeah, um, I see we got Crypto Noobs in the chat.

32:12BKen, we got everybody going crazy, man. I love it. I love it.

32:17AYeah, and then your chat’s going crazy on some other stuff, I think.

32:20CI can’t tell. That’s cool. Crypto Noobs, um, I met him at Oasis Onchain. It’s like a conference in the Bahamas organized by Stephen Delaveau. Talk that talk.

32:30AOh yeah, tell us how we’re gonna, we’re gonna do Let’s Talk About Web3 trip with We Them Media. Let’s start. I actually, so I was just talking to Onaji today about like, let’s do merch and like do a little more like Let’s Talk About Web3 brand stuff. We’ve just like done it as the name of this whatever. We initially started as an X space, transitioned into a podcast with this livestream, but then it’s been like, and it’s always been a part of the DAO, but because I’ve been building 24/7 on the DAO, especially other projects, it’s been one thing I want to put more effort into, but we just haven’t had the energy.

32:30ABut I think finding one of those monetization like mechanisms, um, in a very small group. Like, um, just trying out different dApps and tools as a brand so that we can showcase them is such a good, like, showing point. So, like, um, tools like Pods -- Pods is what really took off in my mind of, like, we can actually do this with the podcast. I always saw, like, everyone else doing the whole, like, ads thing and selling to sponsors and talking about their sponsor within their podcast. And I personally always hated that, even though I totally see why everyone does it. And I, I get it.

33:45CTalk about mantle. You’re not listening to Bankless this season?

33:48AExactly. So no, I’ve never listened to Bankless, to be honest with you. Um, which is another whole wild thing. But like, I have very specific like thoughts on -- anyways, I digress. That, that like always was weird to me. But then like learning more about these tools that we can use in addition to the podcast that help give the multimedia mode that’s not just like, okay, I can only monetize the 60 minutes that we’re audio today, you know, then there’s video, then there’s, you know, on YouTube after edited, there’s, you know, clipping it up. And then these -- there’s all these other pieces that go into then building a brand.

33:48AAnd I think with our knowledge and the DAO aspect of like -- I like love DAOs, even though like everyone like, that’s a scary word for a lot of people in 20 -- I mean, maybe 2 or 3 years ago, not in 2025. But, um, but like, I love that idea. Like, I was a part of PDX down in Oregon when I first got down the rabbit hole. So, those people were very public goods, regen-heavy focused. So, learning how a DAO needs to work to be a successful DAO and function was really interesting. So, I’ve been part of a couple failed DAOs, and realizing that the word DAO is just a concept, and that is, a part of, um, the challenge with like just hearing a word and automatically assuming a definition, especially in this space where it’s like, especially like we’re going back to music on-chain.

33:48AUm, it -- on-chain music has not gotten like 1% of -- all 3 of us understand like it can be a lot, 100 times bigger, right? So I think that just because someone says something, I mean, the word NFT, when I joined in 2022, was this scary thing, right? That everyone, every time I was talking about I was interested in this stuff, I had to kind of be like this second identity, right? So it’s an interesting space. 2025 is so different than 2022 and even 2019 and earlier. So I’m just excited to cook up with y’all. Oh, so I guess coming back to the pods thing. We got just people checking out our pod, buying it as an NFT just by being on a platform.

33:48AAnd that was cool to me to see. I need to push a little bit more. I need to get our whole season 1 and then season 3, episode 1 up there. But I think just finding these other tools, learning more about something like Empire Builder over on Farcaster with Yerber -- man, I can’t pronounce his name. Yerberzerker, I think, is what it is. Just cool things that people are building to help make -- there was someone who said really 2 really good words. It was like structures that build together symbiotically as opposed to not together. I don’t know. There was a great quote that I’m going to have to go find at some point.

33:48AAnd hopefully pin over somewhere. But yeah, these people who are creating tools and launchpads that aren’t for themselves, but they’re built for themselves because they see the solution. But then that same solution applies to many more people. And that’s what I love about this dev creator culture. That’s what I’m excited to help you guys support. I love the whole NounsDAO Africa thing, seeing you over there as well. So hearing that you did an education thing over there, Um, you know, maybe, uh, V, that’s, that’s, that’s next on your list, chief. All right, you gotta, you gotta get over there and put your work in. Um, put your, put your time in.

37:24BI got a lot of homework, man.

37:27ABut yes, absolutely, we all do, right? So that’s the, that’s the beauty of this space and like finding the dope people around. Like you’re saying, you know, we’ll bring it right back to what you’re saying at the beginning. Grateful for a community, the people that we do have here. supporting us in each of our own lanes and then together as a whole. So, um, yeah, I guess that’s just a long-winded way of saying excited to kind of like have you on board whenever we, we build here and would love to start figuring out ways that we can, uh, tap in with some of that, like, you know, knowledge of, of your experience of, of that podcast journey. And I didn’t know any of that, to be honest with you. So like, that’s pretty cool. Um, and we definitely need you back on specifically for something, something cool like that if you are interested. But Nonetheless, I know you’re doing amazing, cool things with all of the other communities you’re rocking out. So yeah, I don’t know, B, how many -- if you had a bunch more questions, but for sure, I feel like we keep talking forever.

38:22BSo what is it? What’s the prep for whatever this next bull or this next crazy cycle goes crazy? Like, what is some of the prep that you’re doing with you and your community? I know you had mentioned a while back when I was in one of the calls -- I’ll be trying to catch the calls, man. I’m bad. You know, you had mentioned like being a founder of a community and hitting that sweet spot to be like, you know, I’m able to pass the reins, pass the ball to, you know, some of my team. And my team is really taking the reins and they’re, you know, they’re having the confidence to just run with the ball. And I thought that was super dope. You know, that’s something that, you know, all founders struggle with. So I think that’s really cool. So how, how are you prepping yourself, you know, we, them, the team, you know, to just -- Go crazy this next bull because it’s coming. Let us know.

39:06CI feel like I’m in the iteration cycle at this point. Like, what? Like, what is the ball in the first place, right? Like, We Them Media doing events coverage? Like, I don’t know. We tried that. I feel like I’m not super confident in it right now. I think there’s an immediate need for us to make sure, like, our media person is one person essentially, right? And historically, I feel like I haven’t allocated capital in a way that’s left him feeling supported and left him feeling stressed and overworked, essentially. And so if we want to actually cover events and do it, you know, at a professional level, I think it demands having a bigger team. We don’t have any capital, you know. And so I think that kind of creates one stopgap there. I’m interested in doing educational content. Like, sure, I’m interested in like really bringing more Black Americans on-chain. like a big thing, right, for We Them Media is like we want to be, uh, we want to see Africans and people of African descent become first adopters of blockchain technology.

40:05B1,000%.

40:06CRight, and for me that’s Black Americans. Like, I can talk about the diaspora, but I’m a Black American human being, right? I haven’t been -- I’ve been to 2 countries in Africa. There’s 54, I think. So it’s like clearly I’m not the one representing the diaspora, right? And I think it’s cool that we’re lining up with NounStyle Africa And the opportunity to see partners like that be able to support us, right, or like partner with us to do things that actually reflect the diaspora is cool. And I’m excited to see what that can look like more long-term, right, that we’re building out those structures to be able to support media production and pay a team and potentially get budgets from that community to do small things which work for people on ground, right, to support that without needing to feel like they’re doing work for free.

40:06CAnd then I think beyond that, right, I am Still figuring out, like, if I want to do educational stuff focused on Black America, what does that look like? You know, I’m very curious to hear about, like, what -- where Onaje is at in terms of, you know, educating people, what the challenges are. Um, we were discussing today, like, I went to this entrepreneur summit over the weekend, and it was cool talking to people in real estate, um, people in laundromats, people in, uh, storage units and housing, um, people that do education as a service, sell courses, people that do marketing. people in taxes, like people and stuff I don’t know anything about, honestly.

40:06CAnd hearing about like their -- the business acumen they have to navigate or leverage, right, in order to do what they do well. And I got really aware my business acumen is not very big, like it’s negligible actually. And so, you know, looking for mentorship in that space and looking at how do I bring this project above board, but also how do I bring it back home to what I’m actually committed to? If I want to make a difference in Black America, what does that look like? If I want to support creators, what does that look like? What is our revenue model? Like, all these questions I actually have to ask if it’s sustainable and makes sense.

41:49BAnd even having those questions and asking them is the first step. So that awareness is key.

41:53CYeah, yeah. So I think, like, I’m still figuring out what it looks like, but I think right now what I’m thinking about is, can we be educating people that have money in America about crypto? And can they look at, you know, my track record and what I’ve been up to as the reason to trust us? in my community as people to showcase what Black people, African people in the diaspora are doing with this technology. And like I mentioned earlier, why it makes sense to potentially be DCAing into the biggest opportunities of our lifetime, potentially. You don’t have to go in here and day trade. You don’t have to go in here and trade perpetuals.

41:53CI don’t know what that is, but I have a lot of conviction that all these currencies could be hyperinflated very soon and that we could all be stressed and wondering, what should I be holding? besides the things that I hold. Um, and just giving people a really deep awareness of the dangers that can come in just navigating a fiat world without knowing what that actually entails, which is what my parents, my grandparents, my great-grandparents have been doing. And for most of us, that’s just the truth. Unless you know about inflation and, you know, international monetary systems, right, you don’t really necessarily understand what it means to hedge against like local inflation with foreign currencies.

41:53CYou know, even forex traders, I don’t think, consider that there’s an opportunity to arbitrage against inflation. There’s arbitraging against like changing currency values without necessarily considering monetary policy and the things that impact those things. But I think traveling the world and looking at crypto has given me a much deeper understanding than anybody I know, you know, that I interact with on a week-to-week basis, right?

43:21BYep, 1,000%. Nah, Crypto Noob said you got this, Marcel, for sure. That’s what I’m talking about. And I agree, I agree. To answer your question, um, you know, that’s dope to see like the homies over the weekend, like you’re cooking and you’re killing it, having those business discussions, man. But give yourself, give yourself some grace. Business is just as vast and as huge as tech is. You know what I’m saying? There’s a billion ways, trillion, probably septillion ways to handle and be successful and do business just as a term itself, you know, just like tech. So give yourself some grace. Um, I know, you know, I know you were, you were in the rooms and you were teaching a lot of people just like you teach in the space right now.

43:21BUm, I think for me, over the weekend I was at TwitchCon, so I’m heavily diving into This social media, I mean, well, this evolution of social media into short form, long form, live content. I’m having a blast and just expanding the network there, bringing, you know, the community building side, but also bringing like the, the tech education, emerging tech education into the livestream side, figuring out how to, you know, best bring that while still learning the tools, still learning this even Web2 tech around just like, you know, OBS and you know, streaming services and different things like that. So that’s been my journey, um, you know, pretty much like since April on.

43:21BUm, you know, of course the deans at the U, they’re always on me. They’re like, let’s, let’s, let’s get the ball rolling, get the content rolling, things like that. So, you know, I’m just, uh, heavily just hitting it on the content side. Um, which is really cool because, you know, I think that’ll be valuable for, for later on, just like, you know, our, our Twitter Spaces and that, you know, content that we still have up on Spotify and all that good stuff. Um, is valuable from back in the day. So yeah, man, I hope that was helpful.

45:06CYeah, definitely. And so I’m hearing that you’re not necessarily focused as much on like the education, like infrastructure or structure at the structured level, but more on the content side now, right?

45:16BYeah, yeah. And I think the reason too, um, I just had an incredible call in July with Ritzy, uh, shout out to all of Metaverso, another, another crew that’s basically doing what me, you, Zal is doing on the You know, the Spanish-speaking side, you know, and I’m heavily tapped in with them. I had a conversation with her in July. She just dropped that podcast on Monday. Was that last Monday already? The week already flew by.

45:39AI had to catch up on that one. Yeah, it was last Monday.

45:42BSo she was talking about, you know, the content journey and things like that. I was telling her the bridge between me and her and Hola Metaverso was Luis. So shout out to Luis. He’s actually over -- dang. What’s the coin that’s the S?

45:56ASolana?

45:58BNo.

45:58ASUI?

45:59BNo, dang it, it’s a new one. They just changed, they just rebranded. But anyways, there, I’ll, I’ll tell you guys later on. But he’s the community manager for that, like the whole, the whole chain, whole coin type vibe. So he’s killing it on that side. Um, but they were building Learn.io, so it was all, it was the infrastructure that was built. And I was heavily like, we were working on like curriculum and stuff. for that platform. And that’s kind of why, you know, Onaji didn’t really go behind the scenes in the tech side to build the infrastructure because we were kind of partnering with them on that side. So, but hey, I mean, now’s the time. Or I mean, if we -- the media is tackling it, hey, we’ll partner left and right. So, but it is, you know, and I know Z knows, you know, with the, with the AI coding and vibe coding, all that good stuff, like it’s easier than ever to to get stuff built now, which is crazy.

46:51ASo I honestly think like we’re gonna be building like the institutional, like learnings in the future. Like, especially with like how to prompt AI. Literally that part is things that people are gonna need help with and support in how to leverage that like data automation layer, all of these other pieces, like learning that is gonna be different. Like that is gonna change this education. system, right? So I, I think of it not even on like a formal education system side, because like everyone that’s in formal education, whether it be the teachers or the students, are gonna also on their side be trying to learn this.

46:51ASo it’s like, to me, that’s where the classes are going towards, even if like some of them are definitely leveraged and useful in lots of different ways. Like, I got my electrical engineering degree, and that helps infinitely with now realizing how computers work. I didn’t know that a lot of my knowledge was not common knowledge until I started not hanging out with engineers. And I was like, oh, that’s just not something you know. I just like, I’m, I just know it, like, right? So that side of things is insane. Like, don’t get me wrong, but like thinking about, you know, the next generation of kids, thinking about people like Candy’s kids, you know, um, like folks that are, you know, have kids, young kids now, that are about to be growing up in this age, what do we want for them?

46:51AAnd it’s like, if we have these communities, like third places, I think that’s the thing we’ve lost a lot of pre-COVID, but including COVID, right? That was, I mean, people lost their second places in COVID, their workplaces, right? So it made it even more important to have a third place.

48:31CYeah.

48:31AAnd I think that piece of, it happens to be digital, is such a hangup for a lot of people. But once you realize it can extend beyond the digital, it transcends worlds because you realize that you can make a difference in someone’s life halfway across the world on a whim, especially here in the US, realizing like how much of a difference our, like, our earning dollar is or our spending dollar, right?

48:58CAbsolutely.

48:58ASo like that part like boggled my mind because everyone’s thinking like, AI automation, we’re gonna like get rid of all of the people. But I’m like, nah, how do I like -- if we’re -- if everyone’s outsourcing stuff anyways, how do I teach outsourced people how to leverage this tech the best so that the money that I’m paying them is going the farthest, right? So I think like, and then that person being able to do more and earn more and have more of a capacity to then like expand on that as opposed to doing one thing and being locked into one thing, especially when people want them to stay their virtual assistant or whatever, right?

48:58ALike finding that like next level up for other people. So yeah, I’m having a blast. Um, but like, yeah, it’s, it’s getting close to the end here. So maybe we should, uh, uh, we’ll each ask one more question to Maseo. Little, maybe 2 questions. If you have a lightning round question, Onaji, I’m gonna ask 2 and then you’re gonna ask 2. Okay. So what’s your favorite NFT? Just like very one of, one of, one of, one of. It doesn’t have to be the -- like, what’s like an NFT you bought that you appreciate? You’re like, one of the ones you’re gonna show off? Like, let’s say you had a metaverse, it’d be in that gallery.

50:12CUm, you know, I’m -- I work pretty closely with Jed Exo. Like, Jed, you both know Jed, I’m pretty sure. Um, and I’ve collected his song Maybe Lost or Soulcraft. I think it was Lost. Um, I think it was on my birthday that he minted it too in 2021, right? No, 2022, like when I finished college. It was that winter, um, when I was first getting into this space. And I would say it was like an NFT I, I collected and was excited about. So I would say that’s, that’s definitely one I would always show off. I feel like he is now, you know, easily one of my closest friends in this space. someone I co-conspire with, someone who I look at like a brother. And I feel like that’s just a product of me being in this space. And I admire his music so much. And I think, you know, seeing him on his entrepreneur journey now and, you know, just someone who’s been in the space and ongoingly been passionate about making a difference, period. That’s my favorite NFT.

51:08AI love it. Um, I’m gonna show off something real quick here that you should definitely check out. M3, um, that’s right there. Yeah. Yeah, this is a media player built by Prism, who was in the chat at one point. I don’t know if he’s still here.

51:23BW Prism.

51:24AYou log in with -- you log in with your wallet and it grabs all of your music NFTs. It doesn’t have SOL yet, but it has a bunch of EVM chains, um, and it’s a music player. So, um, that’s pretty smooth.

51:37CThat’s cool.

51:37AYeah, it’s, it’s pretty cool. Um, I’m not gonna play it right now, but, uh, yeah, no, we love Jed. Jed is One of the top members of the Zao, so shout out to him. He’s a goat. I love his energy, and I just love, love like hearing all of the cool things that have like he’s been tapped in with. And I’m like, oh, Jed’s here. Oh, Jed’s here too. It’s just cool, cool. I love people like that. There’s certain people that are good at that online capacity and being multiple communities at once, like well. like an actual contributor. And those people are really interesting to me, ’cause that’s the side of being able to manage your time well that’s important, and the biggest challenge in the current world today. But I’m gonna say a quick thing. This Lost NFT, I got because I was buying a bunch of Jayden’s NFTs, and I got it in a giveaway pack. So that’s pretty cool that you said that, because I forgot where I got that until Prism made this. this, and I forgot I even had it, and I won it. Um, and, and that’s -- yeah, so shout out to Jed. Um, do you have a question, B?

52:45BNo, I was just gonna say shout out to Jed. He’s super heavily active in, uh, NounsDAO Africa as well too, man. Yeah, it’s, it’s cool to see just everybody just, you know, networking and grinding, and very much rising tide raises all boats. So heck yeah, that was my favorite quote. Did you ask 2 other Lightnings?

53:03ANo, not yet. I was -- I, I, I just was Back and forth.

53:06BSo one of my lightnings, you know, and I love to ask this one over at, um, Unabided Attention as well too, but if you had to pick one, you know, is it blockchain or is it AI? That’s my favorite, especially the people who know both.

53:21CMan, that’s a good question. I think for me, I use AI every day, but I feel like without blockchain, I would never have started to ask the questions I’ve been asking about money. And I feel like --

53:36BRight.

53:36CSo for me, I think it’s blockchain all the way because I think blockchain is, in my mind, what makes the idea of money truly being a public good possible for the first time in human history. And I think AI is like gonna destroy our labor economy. Maybe not, but the odds are much higher than not. And I think if we don’t -- we’re in that world, we don’t understand money, labor is abstracted away from us, it’s like, I don’t like -- it’s like, are there -- then there become 2 worlds in my mind, right? So For me, I think blockchain is important just because it is, in my mind, the opportunity to really define a world where value is actually determined by people and not by just a few people.

54:11BThat’s an amazing point. I think I remember back to when there was some tech conversation going around talking about universal currency and things. Universal currency talk came from the AI side, which is weird because I feel like that should come from the blockchain side. I heavily align with that.

54:29AAll right, so yeah, I’m gonna go with this easy one. TV or movies, what kind of guy are you?

54:34CHmm, I would say movies. Like, my, my dad’s an actor, he’s in Screen Actors Guild. Like, I think movies are cool. I, I -- but the thing is, I love anime. I watch so much anime, like an obscene amount of anime. Yeah. And so I’d say like TV or movies. I like -- for me, I lean towards movies because I feel like it’s easier to digest a movie with people, um, whereas a TV show, you got to find the niche people who watch that show as well. But I have to acknowledge, I do have to jump. I have another call.

55:06AYou’re good. Yeah, yeah, no, we appreciate it.

55:08CYeah, I appreciate both having me on here. I love being on here. I love to be on this every week. Like, you tell me what I can do to be as involved in this conversation as possible. Like, let’s go. Let’s go. I was tired of -- with my podcast, was it just being me? Right? But there’s so much to talk about, and I think a nuanced conversation about more than crypto is so critical. And I think you two are doing a fantastic job. So I just want to say kudos. You let me know anything I can do, I’m here. You want me to tell people about it, I’ll tell people about it. Like, anything.

55:34APerfect.

55:35CAppreciate it.

55:35AI love it. I appreciate you, Maceo. With that, we will, uh, call it. Appreciate everyone for popping