0:55B: Sold.
0:56A: And I feel like I’ve just been growing over the past few years and thinking a lot more about, you know, community. And I feel like We Them Niggas is like a way to build a brand that kind of stands in that same power and pride and recognition. When I think of nigga, like I was talking to you earlier about the word, like Andrew was saying as well, that like some Hispanic people in New York feel very comfortable saying that word. And you were saying there’s a lot of shared experiences within the Black, brown, and Latino community here in New York. And I think For me, it’s not really about Black people specifically, but more so recognition for people in general and our diverse and worldly experiences. Intersectionality is super important to me and definitely a central way of the way I see things. I’m in a world thinking, how do we build the intersectional body politic? And We Them Niggas, for me, it’s just like, how do we build something that works and supports everyone in the margins?
1:41B: Powerful. Very powerful. So with the name, you also dive into topics like hip-hop. Anime, race, and music and this everything. Like, what made you want to take, uh, these topics on all at once?
1:57A: I mean, to be honest, I just like talking about a lot of things, and I feel like I -- like, I feel like I heard in high school somebody say, your network is your net worth, and I started talking to everybody after that because I was broke. I was like, how are we gonna get this check? And, you know, the things that I enjoyed talking about were music, were anime, and like those things. Like, I listened to so much music, um, this year, and when I was in high school, way more than I do now at this point in my life, to be honest. And I think like I just love hip-hop culture. I feel like hip-hop culture is a huge part of my coming of age. I went to an all-boys boarding school called Church Farm. Shout out to GFS. Shout out Church Farm in Exton, PA. And there are a lot of dudes from New York. And really, that’s where like my taste for music comes from is being around all those people. And really just like even like my sense and appreciation for hip-hop comes from being in that culture there, which was like New York culture but in the suburbs of Pennsylvania.
2:38B: Right.
2:39A: And I would say like, yeah, I think discourse is super important. I went to a Quaker camp. I’ve been in meeting for worship and I think, you know, You know, the things that we have to say that we would say unprompted are the things that are most important for us to say.
2:50B: Nice. How long you been podcasting for?
2:53A: I start -- I did my first episode probably in like maybe March or April 2022, like right before my senior year of college, recorded my trailer like early that year. And I initially just wanted to interview producers. I was like, I’m going to interview producers. I’m a rapper. I was like, that’s going to be my way to connect. Niggas don’t need rappers for real. So it’s like, how do I actually add value? And I was like, oh, let me build a brand like DDG, build the brand, drop the tracks.
3:14B: Nice. And then we fast forward. I know you mentioned a little bit about the Web3 space and how you got your start in the Web3 space. And we know the Web3 space can be a roller coaster. We’ve seen the market go all the way up and then it goes down and there’s a possibility it’s going to go back up. How do you keep some of that audience engaged despite the times of the Web3 market and the uncertainty and things of that nature?
3:40A: I mean, like the audience of my podcast, I mean, I’ll keep it a stack. I feel like the podcast probably has like less than 50 listeners. But I think it’s a lot about, you know, like the web, like the Web3 space, the crypto market, like has exponentially less people participating than it did and interested than it did at this time, like 3 years ago, 2 years ago.
3:58B: Right.
3:58A: And so really what I’m trying to build is build for people when they are interested again, you know, what are the kinds of questions that I had when I got into this space? Who answered those questions? And, you know, how can I be someone that looks like me that’s answering those questions as opposed to someone that doesn’t look like me?
4:09B: Gotcha.
4:09A: And what kinds of questions do people that think and look like me actually have about this space? And that’s really how I ended up in the Web3 music space as opposed to just like the finance space, because I’m not a finance bro. I don’t -- I hold little to no crypto that I don’t in my mind expect to spend on NFTs. And I don’t really like buy a lot of NFTs like speculatively, like hoping things go up in price. I would say it’s way more often about the networking, you know, who are other people in this space who are savvy and thinking and have been here potentially even longer than myself, you know, and how can they help me think about, you know, how do I make a difference and contribute to a movement? which I see is about creating an artist middle class in the NFT space. And I think it is about philanthropy, the NFT space right now at least. And then I would say the Web3 space more broadly, crypto, I feel like is a lot about a revolution around finance and moving away from centralized powers having, I guess, the control. Yeah, control. That’s exactly correct. Over, over us in our relationship to value. Right.
5:00B: So, you know, this pivoting, you know, you’ve been podcasting since you said around 2022, correct?
5:06A: Yeah.
5:06B: And is there any like standout moments with any of your episodes or any of your, you know, um, previous podcasts?
5:14A: Um, standout moments. I mean, my interview with Jaden Violet, and it was in Rec Philly, like a, like a creator’s, like, co-working space. They have, like, studios, stuff like that in Philly. Um, it’s actually in the gallery, and they’ve been going for a couple minutes. Shout out, Will, um, and your co-founder. I don’t actually -- I talked to co-founder once, but it’s not the point. And, uh, I think that was my first IRL interview, and so I think that was definitely a standout moment. But honestly, like, It’s all been an adventure for me. You know, like the podcast is one thing, but like I said, I’m a rapper. I’m thinking about how do we build a brand right now? I’m thinking about, you know, how do we pivot from being like a music Web3 podcast to a community-driven, like human rights-oriented publication, among other things, you know, but definitely human rights, I think definitely music, definitely technology. I’m interested in philosophy. Like there’s so many things to talk about. So I think for me, the standout moments are meeting people like yourself. Like, like this is a start to our journey as friends, you know?
6:01B: Yeah.
6:01A: Like Tom was just in here. And like, to me, that’s what’s exciting is like the idea of what we can build together. You know, like I was saying earlier, collective action was important. So building the relationships and thinking about how I can build a platform that serves our interests in the long term. Like right now, like this is practice. This is not the product. That’s how I see it.
6:16B: Yeah, yeah. This is a new journey for us too. You know, just even getting on an interview and just, you know, covering different artists and hearing their stories. You know, this is definitely a journey for sure. You know, we look at like things like anime, right? And I remember, uh, there’s an artist named Ronski I’m gonna quote -- I mean, not quote, mention. Um, he paints a lot of anime characters in like to represent like us, like Black people or whatever. And, uh, I’m like, yo, I didn’t know Piccolo -- Piccolo was Black, bro. He was Black. Like, he painted Piccolo like in a, like in a Space Jam like outfit, and he’s like, you know, like running down the court. I’m like, yo, this is fire though. But like, um, do you see any connection, especially like we look at anime, like we all, all of us grew up in the hood watching anime and it was like, I felt like anime was one of those things that brought the hood niggas with the nerd niggas. And it was like that, like common connection. And did, did you ever like look at that and like, yo, let me use especially topics like anime to bring people together through this podcast?
7:18A: I mean, honestly, anime hasn’t really been like the deepest subject of discussion quite yet on the podcast, but I I mean, I’m a huge One Piece fan. Like, I would say Monkey D. Luffy and G-Herbo, probably like the people I’d say is my role models. And I’ll throw bell hooks in there as well. But I think like, I think like I see like Monkey D. Luffy as really being someone that’s standing against, you know, corruption against a quote unquote world government that stands for everything that’s wrong with the world.
7:43B: Yeah.
7:43A: You know, and he’s standing for like the rights of people and the interests of the common person in so many different contexts. Um, and you see injustice in so many, like, take, take shape in so many different ways because he’s traveling the world fighting injustice.
7:54B: Right.
7:55A: And so I think a lot about, you know, injustice for me might not be what injustice looks like for you as someone that’s different than myself, living in a different city, for example, or in a different body, different religion, different faith. And so I’m really interested, you know, how do we start to unpack and make sense of the injustices that might not be personal -- personally impacting us but are inextricably linked, you know, obviously. And that’s what people frequently say, but I think it’s not obvious for most people because we don’t actually see the connections.
8:16B: Yeah.
8:17A: And so I would say for me, I see anime as a way to like start to look at, you know, like I think of training arcs is a big concept for me that you gotta be willing to do the work, you know, like Naruto didn’t get good in one day, you know, Chunin Exams let him start his training, you know, but then you actually got to train. And so what do you want to train for? And like, what are you going to put the time in for? What are you actually going to get disciplined so that you can get better at? And for me, I’m interested in those conversations and really even like, you know, where does anime culture take us in the future?
8:17A: Because I think it is like, I think there are stories of hope. Like you talked about it being like nerdy niggas and other niggas, but I feel like Like anime and manga are the comic book stories of today, but they’re not, they’re not Western. And so it’s interesting to see like those ideas permeating our cultures, even to think about, you know, what is it that has this resonate so much with, with us here in the West, uh, but also be written and scripted and drawn, you know, across the world. But we have next to no idea of actually what it’s like to live in Japan.
9:03B: Exactly. I mean, I, I think anime is very political and it’s very, you know, you look at it now, it’s very current with the times. And then even with the nature of your podcast now, um, I do want to know, like, have you, have you gotten any like The feedback on your podcast and the subjects that you cover, they could be kind of difficult to talk about at times. And how do you find that balance to keep it light, but yet still stay relatable and stay on the subjects that you want to talk about?
9:33A: I mean, I think the way that I do most of my interviews honestly is like, and people say it’s too long, but I think I’m really interested in doing a profile on people. So, you know, like, who are you? And then what do you care about and why? And kind of being able to get from, you know, zoomed out, you know, who are you?
9:48B: Right.
9:48A: And then, you know, you zoom a little bit more and like, what’s important to you? And then now we’re here and we see like why it’s important because you’re talking to us about it in detail. And I think you don’t really get to those nuanced conversations unless you’re patient enough to get, like you were saying earlier in our conversation, you know, why would people say what they say in the first place? And then you got to get their worldview, their sense of their circumstance. And for me, I think like I focus less on how hard it is and more on getting a grasp, you know, how they see their circumstance.
9:48A: and trying to see if I can resonate. And if not, you know, even speaking to what questions I might have being that I don’t resonate. And I would say that’s how I would answer your question. But I definitely get feedback. I mean, my great aunt said, we them niggas gotta change. My girlfriend’s mom said we should be like Melanated Bros. I love it, man. I was like, we’re not Melanated Bros. Because I mean, I aspire to have it be like 50/50. You know, my guests are male and female, ideally, you know, 50/50. But I think like I don’t know. I think the name might change with time.
9:48A: I want it to be a reflection of a community. Right now it’s just me.
10:41B: Yeah.
10:41A: Um, but my great aunt says it should be We Them Niggas No More because we want to stop being known as that. But I think it’s about, uh, demanding dignity and recognition for our humanity, uh, not, not sidestepping, you know, what we already identify with to ask for that, but being able to get that inside of how we see ourselves. And I see myself as that nigga, so see me as a human being inside that rather than making me step out of that to accommodate or assimilate to what you perceive as humanity or humanness.
11:07B: Not to get a little bit off track, I have a, you know, I’m an abstract artist, so I have a painting called King’s Mantra. But originally I wanted to call it Nigga’s Mantra. But it’s like, you know, we wake up and it’s like, yeah, I am that nigga. I could totally relate to what you’re saying. And I think, you know, We Them Niggas podcast, that as soon as I heard about it, I’m like, yes, it felt so empowering. It really did. Um, and I, I want to know, like, just to end it off, you know, um, how do you keep this unapologetic nature of keeping the name and having it more as like an empowering, you know, um, platform for your audience? And, um, how do you, like, you know, continue to -- what’s your goal to, like, really give strength to the maybe Black community or just, you know, whoever your following is to, to perpetuate what message you’re trying to give across?
12:02A: I mean, I just think there’s really stifled discourse in the Black community and impoverished communities in a lot of ways. We don’t have safe spaces. We don’t have spaces with deeply educated people who actually have regard for us.
12:14B: Right.
12:14A: And so I think I’m really interested in scouting out people that I see as educating themselves on things that pertain to us and our concerns, people that look like us, people that don’t, and starting to have serious conversations about, like I said, how we achieve goals that we might not all see as our shared goals, but that move forward things that we all want to see happen in the world. What does moral progress look like? What does cultural progress look like? progress look like? And, you know, who are people that actually want to see that happen, that are making it happen? I would say that those are the kind of questions I ask and that help me determine who I want to work with and collaborate with.
12:14A: So I’m here with yourself and interested in supporting Archive because I think like technology is super important and technological literacy is super important for Black and brown communities. But I think it’s intimidating to older people and to younger people in a lot of instances. And so being able to put that in a context of music and creativity, I think is exciting because it’s like, okay, now maybe they can relate to it. Like maybe at ETH Denver you wouldn’t care about crypto, maybe at Art Basel you’ll like, okay, so tell me about, you know, how I can make a little money off my art.
13:09B: Right.
13:10A: And I think it’s just different conversations, but I think in the end it’s education, you know, and promoting free and open discourse so people do get to learn and hear ideas that they wouldn’t ordinarily encounter because the kinds of conversations that I think I hear people like having frequently, in my opinion, are stale. I don’t wanna care about what’s happening on TV. Oh, it’s cool they had NFTs on The Simpsons, but like, I got other things to worry about. And so, you know, like, I think, you know, There are people dying and we got to talk about those kinds of things. And how do we start to solve the problems that have that be the case? Right.
13:40B: It’s interesting you brought that up. I have a colleague, I have a family member that works at Facebook. And when we talk about the technological illiteracies, a lot of the departments that got eliminated were, a lot of them consisted of people of color. And a lot of those roles were administrative roles, but we see that tech is arising And so there’s a big gap, and I, I definitely commend you for touching on subjects like that. Um, we’re gonna start to wrap up the podcast, but, um, I do want to just ask one final question. Um, any advice for Maceo 10 years ago?
14:20A: Maceo 10 years ago? Right now I’m 23. Yeah, Maceo 13.
14:24B: Oh, you’re 23? Okay, all right.
14:26A: Damn, let’s, let’s start starting middle school with 7th grade.
14:30B: All right, yeah, we could do it. We could scale it back to about 8 years.
14:34A: Okay.
14:35B: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
14:35A: Let’s say wildly.
14:36B: Teenage, teenage.
14:37A: 10th grade, starting now. I mean, I think like I found out you can learn math on YouTube after having shitty math teachers, like at the end of my senior year, it feels like. And I feel like really it just would have been like, like I was watching all this anime. I caught up on all of One Piece. Like I watched shows I don’t, I don’t remember. Like I watched Pretty Little Liars, trash, don’t watch it. Like I was just watching TV, killing time. Like it was the pandemic before it was the pandemic because niggas had nowhere to go. It was boarding school. So I would say, like, Maceo, start, you know, like, you’re only going to have less free time as you get older because you don’t have money.
14:37A: Like, you got to be figuring out what you’re going to do with your life, what you want to do with your life, how you’re going to make money. And it’s important to take that initiative. So, you know, don’t just think about those questions, but think about what you’re excited to learn about and use the internet as a resource to do that and find people who are writing about those things, whether it’s on Reddit, whether it’s posting about on Instagram, like, look for people who you know would answer your messages. and start getting in conversation with them. Because nigga, you got time to kill. Yes sir.
14:37A: So don’t kill it doing stuff that you’re, that you’re not really going to appreciate, you know, 8 years from now.
15:35B: Yes sir, yes sir. Time is a very valuable resource.
15:37A: Cool. So less Fortnite, more conversations.
15:40B: That’s what I’m talking about. Well, it was a pleasure, Maceo, interviewing you. Um, I can’t wait for Archive Volume 1 to fucking drop.
15:48A: No cap.
15:48B: We Them Niggas Podcast, we fucking live. Thank you so much just for coming through and blessing us with your presence. I think this is the beginning of a beautiful partnership going forward. So, yes.
15:59A: And that’s why I’m here. I have to say, I’m excited for it. I’m excited to be working with you both, your whole team. I’m inspired by what you all do. And I feel like it’s the universe blessing us that we’re here today. And so I had to be here.
16:10B: Absolutely. And just for those who don’t know, Archive is a subsidiary of BlueCalf Magazine. We’re launching our first issue January 27th. Our big focus is artists in tech, experimental technology, AI, AR, XR, Web3, you name it. We really want to highlight the artists and the builders who are making big impact in the space. So we really care about that and we want to highlight and give flowers to where it’s due.
16:41A: Love. Yeah. So shout out to Archive. Tune in with them for sure. Get excited and be at that release party because the zine is coming.
16:48B: It’s going to be lit.
16:49A: Yeah, and so this is another episode of We Them Niggas. I know, unconventional. Y’all have never ever seen me get interviewed to talk about myself, so it’s, uh, at least like prompted. So I’m excited for y’all to get this episode, and I’m glad that it’s with this nigga right here. Shout out, Blue. And, uh, I’m excited to see what you do next.
17:04B: Yes, sir.
17:05A: Well, yeah, so there we go.
