A harness for DAOs, and governance you earn.

0:01ATalking, uh, talking to us, uh, chatting a little bit. Uh, but say, you wanna, you wanna kick us off?

0:08BWe’re here with the Zabal Presents Better Call Saul. We’re out here, we’re doing it. We’re here with the James from MWA, Mental Wealth. Yeah, I met James from, uh, Bitcoin Pizza Day and a year ago, 2 years ago, and it’s pretty crazy. We’re coming up A week and a half on 2 years knowing each other, man. Um, and you’re building this like DAO tooling platform you’ve been trying to get me to use and understand. And, and, you know, I just know Zal’s like a DAO nerd who’s into governance and all the things that you’re doing. I think he’ll be a real use case set of eyes who’s game to be in your nitty-gritty more than me. So I wanted to invite you on here today, and I appreciate you just being game to come vibe and let us unpack what you’re doing and unpack some of your wisdom and knowledge. You are the, you are the God AI embodied.

0:55CThank you. Thank you.

0:59BWhat an introduction. You want to introduce yourself? Yeah.

1:04CSo my name is James. I’ve been in this space for about 6 years. You know, it’s kind of crazy that I don’t have, like, AI psychosis from being in here so long, or crypto psychosis and schizophrenia because of the illusionary nature of the money and just the ideologies that come with these tools. And I’ve just been here, like I’ve been institutionalized by crypto. And really, it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s not --

1:39Awhen you say institutionalized, what do you mean? Like, define that a little bit. Like, I, I don’t know if I understand what you’re saying.

1:45BSpeaking in soliloquy, prison cells --

1:48Cmy prison cells are built out of like thick Bitcoin and Ethereum and blockchain wallets and ERC-20s. Yeah, it’s a contract. I didn’t know that creating this blockchain account was a contract, a smart contract, and that contract is a length of time that has barred me in here. So I’m stuck here. I’m stuck here with all you guys.

2:06BOkay, and so you’re, you’re being held captive? Not -- so this is the, this is the, the school to blockchain pipeline?

2:14CYeah, well, we’re kind of like in -- we’re all cellmates. Imprisoned together.

2:19BNo, I feel like we’re on a slave ship on our way to prosperity.

2:21CNo, we’re, we’re locked in.

2:24BWork hard for those winnings. That’s the American dream.

2:26CLocked in, double entendre. So like, we’re literally like in this digital space. Like, we’re probably all not leaving blockchain and crypto, right?

2:34BSo, Zal, is this, is this what you thought it would be?

2:36ANo, it’s not. But I mean, just, I want to hear this DAO too. Like, I get the perspective. Like, I, and I love it. I’m like you said, I’m a DAO nerd. So I like, I like the perspective. I would disagree with it personally, but, um, I can see how people that are in it for longer -- because I came in 2023, 2023 is when I came down the rabbit hole -- so I do get it, I get the concept. But I also feel like there’s so many different nuances to it. So, uh, I’m excited to hear --

3:04BWhy?

3:05AUm, I think there’s a lot of people who have left that I would still say I would still be friends with, which I think kind of like is a little bit different than that, right? Like there’s people who have quote unquote gotten out of it, not died, right? Like, and like, but like not doing this specific crypto thing anymore, but still doing something relatable to what I, again, like what I’m personally doing where like I’m leveraging crypto as a tool where like we hopefully are being able to, like, we’re very focused on on-chain music and like, that’s where I’ve tried to dive as deep as I can, because I think there’s a lot of tooling here for artists that artists don’t know about. So like, that’s been like my bridge personally. And I think there’s -- by that statement, I would be bringing people into jail, right? So like, I disagree with it initially, right? So like, it doesn’t conform with my belief of like, how it can be beneficial. So I think there’s like a way of looking at it like that as a positive person and like try to look at things in a positive light. So that’s just like my perspective.

4:15BHe’s like, he says, Mase always silences me.

4:20AI mean, he wanted me to, he said he wanted me to say it.

4:23CSo yeah, no, I like that.

4:25BBut yeah, it comes down to his take that the blockchain is jail and you’re like, well, this is my nuanced take on this.

4:30AAnd also it doesn’t align with what I do, right? So it’s like, I feel like that’s, uh, That’s also like that personal ego, right? In everyone.

4:39BNo, but I appreciate you not letting us spread misinformation. I agree with you, Saul. Oh my gosh. Yo, James, you’re funny, bro.

4:48CLock in, twin.

4:49BOh my gosh. I think that it’s, it’s crazy that we’re in an era where streamers can be talking to the AI. Like, I’m gonna give the AI this transcript, right? So I’m like, AI, wasn’t that funny? And maybe it’ll answer me like in the notes afterwards. Actually, AI definitely answered me in the notes afterwards, right? And now I can actually see it respond to me later on. Isn’t that kind of cool?

5:10CDoes AI have a sense of humor?

5:12BLike, if you just get a joke, its only job is to validate my ego. So if it’s mean to me, I fire it and I buy it.

5:19COh yeah, the psychopathy or whatever that word is called of it.

5:24BYeah, but Drew, I’m curious to hear what’s your question for him about his DAO platform? How would you advise him to start his pitch?

5:36AIs Drew here?

5:38CI don’t see his like square.

5:39AShoot, my bad. Uh, he popped on and off.

5:43BLet’s listen to the sound of my voice.

5:45AThere we go.

5:46BOh, I like him enjoying the, the mild chaos, but I feel like it’s like this is a personality episode. That’s what I, that’s what I already got.

5:56AYeah, he, um, he had to refresh and now he’s, he’s in here. I don’t know.

6:03BWait, are we missing -- are we missing the guest in question, or he’s still here? No, he’s here. You were missing. But so you didn’t miss anything. You didn’t miss anything important though. We were just talking about like -- it was -- that was a sitcom part of the episode. We’re back real time now. Uh, that was sponsored by Mental Health Academy. Um, and now we’re going into -- there’s no sponsorship. He didn’t give me any money, but we’re here. And, uh, Drew What’s your first question about Mental Health Academy? Mental Health Academy? This is a tool for DAOs?

6:35AYeah.

6:37BSo it’s a -- it’s okay. I mean, what --

6:40CIt’s like a harness. It’s like a harness for DAOs.

6:43BA harness? Okay. What does that mean?

6:46CAre you familiar with AI harnesses like Hermes agents? Yeah, I am. Okay, so it’s like a harness. Like, you’re building the infrastructure around for the ecosystem to thrive in. A typical DAO, for the most part, what we’ve mostly seen, which you guys are probably used to, is a contract. And it’s going to be like a website, and there’s going to be voting, and there’s going to be, you know, treasury things going on. But that’s mostly just a contract on a website. So a harness actually includes the ecosystem. So like the incentives, the mechanisms, the things that you think are fun, and the boundaries into which you are moving into inside of that biome.

7:28BWas this what my -- when you sent me that something called firebases.ai, is that sort of a similar concept?

7:37AYou’re muted, Mr. L.

7:42BI said that was Bonfires. And I can’t really tell you that for you. Okay. Are you familiar with Aragon? Is it sort of like a DAO OS type of idea?

7:55CSo, you know, Aragon. So, Aragon, again, is kind of just the contract side of it. I wouldn’t consider them a harness. They’re mostly a launcher for a DAO token.

8:06BOkay.

8:08CIt has the infrastructure and communicating, but it doesn’t have the incentive alignments. It doesn’t have the spending thesis.

8:15ASo, so let’s say we understand DAO harnesses. When you say harness, what exactly are you adding in, in utility leveraging AI agents with DAOs? I’m very curious because it’s, uh, definitely a sphere I’ve, I’ve dabbled in and like want to research more about. So I’m curious what you’ve built.

8:34BDrew, I don’t know if you saw, but Zal just stood up and locked in. Oh, okay. There’s a new person. No, same person. He just, he just locked in and then he, and then he asserted his question. The floor is yours, James.

8:46AOkay.

8:49CUm, what was the question again?

8:50AJust like, what specifically are you doing for DAOs, right? Like with AI, what is the AI agent harness going to give your DAO beneficial than like a smart -- you’re saying like most are smart contracts, right? What is yours in addition to that with AI?

9:07CSo really our harness and our ecosystem is designed around mental health, wellness, and education. So activities and stuff inside the platform are utilizing DAOs like the primitive and infrastructure, but the incentives and features of the token and economics inside is geared towards edutainment, which is going to be like entertainment that’s featuring mental wellness, health.

9:33BThat’s wild.

9:33CUm, education, all those things.

9:35AHow, um, how’d you start building this? Like, what made -- what was the inspiration?

9:42CUm, I have a lot of student debt. You know, college is super expensive. And also capitalism, you know, like, it’s inflation, it’s hard to get jobs. We’re in competition with a lot of people who are our neighbors. You know, we’re in competition with a lot of people who are in the same jobs as us. You know, there’s people right now, like, backstabbing themselves at work because they’re afraid that they’re all going to get cut because of AI, because of layoffs. And it kind of becomes this performative, like, PvP battle, the same that we see in tokens. You know, people call tokens PvP battles all the time.

9:42CThat contract, that ERC contract, that length of time is the same as your work contract and your employer. And during that contract, you’re trying to the best of your ability not to lose that contract because that is giving you life force, that is giving you capital. to survive. So ultimately, my ideology for using these tools is to create an ecosystem rather than a top-down infrastructure tool. An ecosystem where, where the value is not top-down. And a lot of people say this when they’re speaking about DAOs, but the way that they actually implement them and the way that we’ve seen them implemented historically has been reminiscent of top-down businesses just because these tools are so new that people didn’t have the time to really like get domain mastery over these tools before they attributed their ideology.

9:42CSo when we look at crypto and we look at like the fallacies and problems with crypto, it’s like --

11:18BI’m going to ask you --

11:19CNo, just wait.

11:21BSorry.

11:22CJust wait, wait, wait. So when we look at -- I just want to explain why the tool is broken and why we have these bad values of it. The token is -- the tool is a little bad because when crypto and stuff became popular, where -- which, which, which communities made it popular? Marketing culture, capitalism culture, or WallStreetBets? I can make a lot of money with crypto. That’s usually what brings people in. But that financial mechanism is systemically capitalism. It is systemically the American kind of like hyper-optimized marketing of the tool rather than complete understanding and domain expertise. Sorry, my bad. But what was your question?

12:07BYou said -- No, no, no. I mean, Zal was asking you a question. You definitely wanted to respond to that, Zal.

12:13AI mean, a lot of different things, but what’s your question? Now I’m curious.

12:18BI mean, my question was like, how does this Like, how does progressive decentralization -- like, does that have to do with what you’re talking about? Like, top-down, not top-down, bottom-up? Like, yeah, that’s -- I was kind of asking, like, how that fits into what you’re saying. And then the second question would be, like, so I would love for you to ask Zal about what he’s doing and for Zal to finish that conversation understanding how he would use what you’re building and understanding if he would want to. I think that’ll be, uh, that’ll be interesting case study because I’m confused.

12:51CYeah, I got you. So progressive decentralization, what we’re doing for progressive decentralization is trying to bring more clarity in how the tool should be used and more proper, like clear A/B, like goal setting for how someone would interact with a DAO and tool other than writing a proposal and kind of begging and dancing to get funding the same way it’s historically been throughout time in both academia and VCs and funding throughout the history of time. So, Zao, you’re building culture.

13:19BIt’s Zao.

13:20CIt’s like DAO with a Z. So like you could probably use a harness or something like this and borrow this ideology. How, if you, what is Zao a DAO?

13:32AYes and no. Working on becoming a DAO. Also figuring out the definition of a DAO because I don’t think think people have defined it yet. So essentially what we do differently than most DAOs is that for our governance tokens, we use illiquid soulbound tokens. So instead of tying our governance to financial capital, we tie it to social capital instead and have our people that join in our weekly community meetings essentially able to earn that social capital by coming in, sharing what they’ve worked on to share and participate in the ecosystem to make it better this week. And then that They do that in a group of 6, and that group of 6 reaches consensus on who’s done the most, second most, third most, fourth most, fifth most, sixth most to forward the ecosystem.

13:32AAnd each one of those individuals gets a certain amount of points based on a Fibonacci curve. And essentially, it is our way of progressively decentralizing every single week. That’s what we’re doing to do that. There’s many different ways that we are a DAO, many different ways that we aren’t a DAO. One, we don’t have like a treasury as the DAO as a whole. It’s more of an incubator of individuals, and those individuals create projects, and those projects can go and do whatever they want with that. But as the DAO, we don’t have a treasury. And, and like I said earlier, our governance is not tied to a liquid token.

13:32ASo it’s a little bit different in that aspect.

15:05CSo social capital, how is that? Do you still face the same constraint of like bottlenecking when it comes to voting? Are you guys voting on things? How is, how is that process?

15:17ANo, that’s why it’s not a DAO. It’s just me as a leader bringing it forward, a community. And one of our past guests actually advised me unbelievably far against it and even said like, don’t build a DAO, build a community. And I’ve, and I’ve been thinking more, I’m leveraging the ability to query my community on different ideas I have that I want to manifest. And if other people want to do that and join in, they’re welcome to. But for now, it’s a tool that I’m going to continue using and try and show more of it off because a lot of it is tribal knowledge, to be honest with you, where it’s like a lot of it’s just in my head that isn’t well documented. It is in various places over the internet, but it needs to be in one place. Like, again, I’ve been working on that in many different capacities, but I think there’s a lot of benefit to the documentation side of it. So that’s where I’m at. Okay.

16:12COkay. So it’s like, it’s like you like the DAO, you like the ideology of the DAO and you’re implementing it, but in a way that’s very kind of like easy to get into, like low cost and something that’s like, you know, you kind of have like, yeah, you’re in a decent --

16:26AIt’s focused for artists and musicians and they’re not too worried about the decentralization part of it, but I love that part of it. So I’m really interested in like diving deeper into it, but also keeping it as frictionless as possible. So I created a Discord bot to help create the consensus process and a community that’s upstream of us created the concept and had previously been on Telegram. And I had that as a friction point because we were already meeting in Discord. So I had to continue from our meeting in Discord. to being able to vote in Discord as well. And then they’ve actually created a way to push that vote on-chain as well. So we technically vote every week using the consensus process, and I have a great time doing that, but it is mostly just me pushing things through, which is okay right now, but ultimately not the goal.

17:16CYeah, I had that in like in the early days when I used Aragon. I was looking, researching for as many tools as I could find. I’ll use Aragon. And one of the hardest things was really getting people to vote. When people talk about decentralized autonomous organization, we actually think that autonomous should be more AI. You should have AI voting against you. And then we had this discussion and we got into, you know, the game theory of it. Can people manipulate the AI? You know, can you use tokens to manipulate the AI’s outcome? in the proposal process? How will the AI attribute its votes towards it?

17:16CIs it enough to be scary and have people, you know, like a little bit excited or fearful enough to continue voting and making sure the AI doesn’t do stuff? Can the AI scam people, right? It’s kind of like you have like all these questions when you try to integrate AI. So we actually sat with that and we did like a lot of game theory. And what we came up with was that It can be used as a tool for fun, but it’s just not there yet. And I think a lot of people say this for AI, like generally around, it’s a great tool, but the gradient descent, you know, it’s generalizing like a percentage of which tokens, which are equal to numbers that you want, and it’s giving the most probable ones.

17:16CAnd that’s very easily gamed. So it’s not there yet. Even with fine-tuning and stuff, we can get there, but it’s just kind of not there yet. But we still think it’s like an interesting part to add into the integration if it can alleviate some of that top-down stuff. So we did make a new system. We made a tripartite system. So we actually split the DAO into 2 sectors, and one is a community sector and another one is a voted-in sector of like 1/3 or 1/5 of the community size. in order to split the high-level decisions. Like, um, should -- like, example, if Zhao has like $5 million, um, I’m sure you don’t want to just start decentralizing that and just like getting a whole bunch of people into the community because they’re going to rally and they’re probably going to spend that money in ways that you wouldn’t.

19:28BSo --

19:28AYeah, that’s kind of -- that’s kind of how it works, is it actually prevents that because new people can only get there’s only ever X amount of respect distributed throughout a day. So even if more people are coming in, they can’t capture the DAO because we’ve built it into the system of over time leveraging illiquid soulbound tokens. So that, that is definitely a part. But, but the community that is again above ours, uh, which has created a lot of some of the tooling, has, has their own tripartite system where they leverage some of the Respect tooling, um, to vote in counselors that help actually push things across where, you know, you’re not actually having everyone choose everything. Um, so I can totally understand that.

20:19BIf I ever push a We Them Media token, I’m gonna airdrop some to all your Respect holders.

20:23AYou should.

20:25BI see.

20:26CSo you get introduction points for introducing yourself. You, you know, you turn on the camera, I meet people. So I got 10 points today for just hopping in and turning my camera on. And if I write an article or something about it, I can get 50, 10 more points.

20:38AYeah, but that’s in the actual Zelfractal meetings for it. This is more just a livestream that Maceo and I are doing. But we do those on Mondays at 6 PM on my own. And then over the last month or so, 2 months, I’ve perfected my fractal bot so that anyone can actually do it at any time. So as long as we have a group of 4 people, 4 is the minimum, um, at any time people can participate. But we have the most active at the time that like I have scheduled as our main time, which is Mondays at 6 PM Eastern on Discord. So we kind of have a way to have it more autonomous, and that’s kind of what I built into it, um, that anyone can like schedule it for any time, um, and only earn respect once a week. But so if we had one more person, which Drew is here, and we actually all shared what we’re working on this week, then we could do that. That’s participating in the actual game, essentially.

21:40COkay, so if I share something, like if I share some slide decks or something, I get some points?

21:45AIf we do it in a group of 4 and then vote on it after, yeah. 4 or more, and then it’s groups of 6 after 6.

21:57COkay, okay. I like it. It’s like scaffolding steps up.

22:02AYeah, it’s fractally set up so that essentially if you have, let’s say, 20 people, you can have 4 or 5 different groups. Um, well, I guess 5 different groups.

22:16BUm, But I have a question now.

22:18A4 different groups. Yeah, what’s your question?

22:22BDo you understand how you would use his tools all? Or do you understand?

22:26AI have a concept, but I, I, um, I think I just need to play with it. Like, I’m a demo person. Like, I like trying things out. I can see the value for sure. What you’re saying, I definitely could use it. I’m curious. The actual implementation. Yeah, I would love to. If you want to share your screen, I’ll pull it up.

22:47BOkay.

22:47AYeah, because essentially there’s things that are there that I’ve wanted to build, but I haven’t had time to build. So I find value in finding other people who’ve built those concepts out and are willing to make it easily integratable. So I’m curious what you’re working on, where your mind’s at, because I like a lot of the ideology behind it. I have my own specific one because again, we’ve been touching the crypto space with art and music. So it’s been a little bit of a specific thing.

23:21CBut okay, you see my screen?

23:25AYes, sir.

23:26COkay, so Micro University for Community Rewards Learning.

23:36BI like that.

23:39CYeah, had to tweak it a little bit based on some great feedback I got. Um, decentralized science, so we’re really in a DeSci space. So like, um, not just DAO tooling, but like us specifically. So we are open source, so someone could use the harness as a system.

23:55AOh, okay, sick.

23:57BThat’s --

23:57Ayeah, that was one of my questions, but I don’t -- so we are very interesting. Yeah, I would love to just see the GitHub and play around with it. That’s like where I’m at. Already, so that’s cool.

24:10CSo this is our point system ecosystem. You have shards, you have votes, and you have USD. And ideally, you can kind of get a feel for where everything is in this platform. And if not, you can ask the agent.

24:23BSo how does Zal get on here? How do we get Zal? I want Zal to share his screen to be exploring building his the Alan here. This is me in my orchestrator mode. I’m in charge, you’re in my sandbox. What’s the name of that game? Garry’s Mod?

24:39AI never played it.

24:42BI had it, but, uh, I barely -- I played that shit like once or twice. I like never --

24:49CYeah, so we have an agent. So we have a specified agent that’s basically just a rag model that you’ll see like in other agents that are really fine-tuned for their ecosystem, and you can speak to it through the shard system. So we’re not really wasting our burn rating on inference, but we are going to get like an NVIDIA Spark soon. So we’ll be able to even further fine-tune those models here at home and then use that inference for free for the platform to power it. That’s really big. You know, compute and inference is really big in AI right now. But ultimately, you can see that’s your shards and the points here. So for us in our community, as it is mental wellness and education based, there are different -- it’s a 12-week seasonal course. And throughout the week you have your weekly reads, you have your morning notes, and you have the missions that are every single week. And through these and through sealing the week every week, for example, I’ll just, I’ll just fill this in because this is like my test account.

25:47BI have a question.

25:49CSure.

25:49BSo is, is Mint Wealth Academy the thing that you’re really invested in, or are you building DAO tooling, or did you just build Mint Wealth Academy and build tooling for yourself along the way?

25:59CUh, I think those are both the same, because the, the harness and the infrastructure in here is for Mint Wealth Academy. So primarily I am building for Mint Wealth Academy, um, and for our goals of like decentralized science and health and mental wellness and things like that. But ultimately the harness can be used by other people. We just have to get to that stage where we’re like, I guess, selling that as a product. I don’t know.

26:29BWhat do you think? No, no, I just -- I’ve heard you kind of go back and forth. I just think you should stand on one because I feel like it gets confusing when you go back and forth and it’s not explicit. And I just, I just kind of noticed that because I’m seeing you like -- I’m like, okay, how would I use it? I should use it, right? Sorry, I think you’re walking us through how you’re using it, but I’m like, I think it’s, um, yeah, I think it’s like one -- I think they’re two different things, like there’s two different layers of abstraction, right? And I think, uh, when they overlap is I think when it becomes more confusing.

27:00CYeah, so it’s -- yeah, I like to stick into the decentralization and mental wellness lane just because that’s kind of what we’re building for. So for even like with our blogs and stuff, like I’ve been writing on Paragraph for a long time, for like a, like a couple, 2 or 3 years now I’ve been publishing on here. And, you know, you’ll see everything from like how we’re designing the surveys to how we’re designing the ecosystem. Uh, ecosystem edutainment in the digital world is kind of how we’re viewing entertainment in the digital world and how you earn the points and stuff like that. So everything from the secret plan from the beginning in 2004 to the edutainment and the game theory and the ecosystems for creative wellness that we’re building. Um, all these ideologies, I’ve written about them, you know, extensively. And this is -- and almost every story that I’ve told on here has come true so far, um, from the secret plan upwards. Almost every single thing has come true. And I’ve been writing --

28:03AOf the secret plan of what?

28:08CThe secret plan.

28:08AWhat is this? I’m sorry, I, I was trying to do what Maceo wanted me to do and I was pulling it up. That’s what I’m working on here.

28:17BI’m sorry, I appreciate that.

28:19AI’m working, I’m working on it.

28:21BHe’s saying he’s like, um, uh, you like a future teller?

28:24CI’m a seer. Yeah, I, I see a little bit into the future and I try to build for that future. I try to build for tomorrow.

28:32ATell me about the future of my beloved stock, GameStop.

28:38CeBay recently, didn’t they? And I guess it didn’t go well.

28:45AWell, it depends on how you look at it. Yeah. So, yeah, I’d love to see what your thoughts are on that. If you claim to be a seer, that’d be always my first question for any seer.

28:58CI’m good at prediction markets and stock, but I’m not good at just making a handful of trades.

29:04AYeah, no, I’m not even talking about as a trade. I’m just like, as a feeling, like energy.

29:09CYeah, I have no idea, honestly. I’m sorry.

29:12ANo, I get it. When you say that, what do you mean? What are the things you’ve predicted that have come true?

29:17CSo in, I guess, 2004, it might have been a little bit earlier than this because Paragraph does this Sometimes reposted a date or made it earlier. But this was when I was working with Larry and Learn Web3 DAO. And this was before AI. And I’m still --

29:40BWhat year did you say?

29:40AHuh? What year?

29:42B2024.

29:45CBut it was a little bit more earlier than that. I think Paragraph re-upped -- I made an edit to this and I think Paragraph changed it. to the date that I made the edit. And I think it’s actually a little bit more 2023 because I was in Learn Web3 DAO around 2021, 2022.

30:01BYeah.

30:05CSo 2021, 2022, I was with Learn Web3 DAO and that’s where I learned how Solidity, that’s where I learned development and all that stuff before AI came out. So when AI came out, it was just like a bionic upgrade on my arm. You know, it was like Naruto unlocking the Six Paths. I just got like all these random fucking arms and I’m like making the fucking infinite Tsukuyomi and shit. I use a lot of Naruto metaphors in the philosophy and writing that I make as well. So for example, like the infinite Tsukuyomi surf is like god machines bending reality and predicting the future and training ourselves for that future. So this is kind of like where my mind is at most of the time for the project. It’s very Uh, it’s weird. I like, I like being weird with it, but ultimately I try to like ground it in the foundation of a DAO. Um, tools, simulations, game points, and things like that.

31:00BThat’s really, really -- I mean, I think it’s crazy like to see the journey you’ve been on and like tooling evolve. I really think it’s cool. I, um, I’m -- I really think it would be I’m curious, what do you think about like, like trying to have this be a product for like people that do online schooling and stuff like that? Like, like, like, like, what do you think about pitching those kinds of people to use your product as a service, like enhance their existing, like remote?

31:29CYeah, I’ll be honest, I’m pretty uncertain about it just because I am not an accredited school or university. Um, when you do sign up for businesses and you do get a C corp -- so Metal Academy is a licensed C corp in Wyoming -- we did sign a paper saying that we weren’t an education institute. So that’s something that we really can’t get into seriously, but we can step into it as the edutainment aspect. So for -- that’s why I say edutainment and the point system, because when it’s a game and it’s fun and it’s gambling, it’s -- that’s all it is. But the difference between an iOS game and a DAO game is that there’s community involved, that there’s real money involved in the ecosystem. And our goal really is to excavate that and stimulate that into the economy. So it’s just like, um, interactive. I don’t know.

32:24BOkay. How’s it going over there for you, Z?

32:32AI’ll tell you exactly what I took absolutely way too long to actually do. But I’m going to dive deeper in tonight to this. But essentially what I did was I grabbed the GitHub and I said, tell me more about this. I read through some of the docs myself, but I’m curious what my Claude’s gonna find through through that. So that’s what I’m doing, Maceo, here. I don’t have a crazy amount of time left, so I’m definitely going to rock this through, look through it a lot more because I think there’s a lot of really cool stuff here. Would love to tap in more to see how I can help and support you. That’d kind of be my next and last question is like, what’s the best way for someone to support you that has an organization that’s a DAO that Maceo is trying to lead me on to try the tooling? What’s the best way for an organization like me after you’ve heard What we’ve been talking about to leverage your tool line.

33:29CJust, just use it. Just use the platform. I think that’s the biggest thing that crypto is missing is for people to use the platform because there’s such -- it’s like finding like a needle in a haystack.

33:40AYou know, what’s the easiest way to use the agent though? Like, that’s what I’m trying to dive deeper into. Like, if I want to start off myself.

33:48CWell, sign up for the platform, make an account, and it kind of guides you through it.

33:54AOkay.

33:55CAnd then if you ever need it, the agent is at the top right. So you just click the Ask Agent button, it will ask you questions, and it has all the knowledge and knowledge base of the platform on it.

34:04BI feel like once I set it up, I’m like a fish in a fishbowl on a conveyor belt. Where will I end up?

34:10AI don’t understand that analogy, but sure. Okay, I will dive deeper into it, try it out. I’m excited. There’s definitely good stuff here. I’m very curious to dive deeper into this with you. There’s definitely some cool stuff that I think you’ve been tapping into. How long have you been working on this? Like this specific, like starting to build it, let’s say the software, not necessarily like thinking about it.

34:49C3 years. Build Space. I’m trying to think of like when Build Space was. Build Space Season 4. For Season 4 or Season 3, actually it was Build Space Season 3. When was Build Space Season 3? This was when I really put my all. So April 2023. It was when I really put my all into designing the entire layout in Figma, making all the prototypes and interactions, the pieces of what we would do.

35:25AI have an idea.

35:27BWhat’s that?

35:29AI’m going to see if I can play this with Wave Wars. I’ve been playing around with the Wave Wars DAO, so this could make it work, but I just need to build it myself, I think, a little bit. on that front. But I also want to see, like, for my own sake, like, the platform. I think there’s just, like, a lot of things that I’ve been thinking about for Wave Wars that could go really well here that I haven’t, like, pulled the trigger on making a DAO for it because there’s just a lot of reasons why not than to do it. And I think this is going to give me some more reasons to it. So that’s, like, the be-all end-all goal. It would be really cool to use this in Wave Wars, but that takes way more sign-offs than the DAO or Zabal or anything that I do. So yeah.

36:20BThat’s cool though.

36:21AYeah, there’s a lot of cool things.

36:23BYou use Claude to explore the design space for DAO tooling for your stuff? Like you’ll go on like a GitHub and pull stuff and then assess, like train your Claude to understand what kind of mechanisms you could develop and then explore how you would iterate it based on what you’re doing?

36:37AI have all my stuff open source on bettercallzao.com, bettercallzao.com, Better Call Saul’s GitHub. And what I’ve done is I’m building one specific repo called the Zao OS as my dev space of like trying a crazy amount of things. And then one of those things is a skill for me in Claude where I can just do the -zao research on something, which I didn’t do on this. I’m just learning about it personally. Like, but that’s gonna look through all my research documents that I’ve already created, look through my code base currently and then go online before like researching the thing I type in after it so that, and then add it after it’s researched it as a new research doc. So even if it doesn’t search online for anything and it’s just like compiling a list of all of my resources together, it also is like the start of action item plans and like creating things like that. But also it’s like for the future I can always go back and like dive deeper into the learning. So it’s more like it can teach itself, but like you have to build like structures for it. So that’s, That’s the structure I built.

37:39BBadass.

37:40CAI, read this and make no mistakes. Tell me in one paragraph.

37:48BAnd that’s gonna be the description for this video. Bad man. What’s it called? Um, and so tell me everything that happened in one sentence. In our final, in our final minutes, um, you got to freestyle, James.

37:59CNo, no.

38:02AThat’s hilarious.

38:05BYou want to do a monologue, like a speech?

38:07CI’m not a rapper.

38:08BYou’re gonna do like a monologue or a speech? Improv, improv, one-man improv monologue. There you go, you got this.

38:15CI’m like put on the spot, like I really don’t even know.

38:23BEver seen Def Jam Poetry? You could be like Def Jam Poetry.

38:26CNo, I don’t, I don’t know the reference.

38:30BWhat about you, Zol?

38:31AAbsolutely not.

38:35BHear thee, hear thee.

38:37AI could, I could go hard in the paint, like, if you needed me to, but like, what, like, what, what if you do it first?

38:46BHear thee, hear thee. My name be Maseo. Today is May 13th, but it’s not a Friday, it’s a Wednesday. Hear thee, hear thee, people of Meander, people of Mental Health Academy, the Zawa, and We Then Media. I bring all of ye together to hear a story about how on the Bitcoin Pizza Day 2026, you will go out and you will hunt down your $500 prize. You will put your best foot forward and you will shoot content henceforth in pursuit of your $500 bounty. And that here is my soliloquy to the people of the Zabal stream.

39:29CI feel like I’m in an episode of The Office.

39:31AThat’s funny. Um, yeah, it’s pretty hard. I can’t do a character. I don’t do characters, so I’m just gonna talk. But, um, yeah, so this was an awesome stream. Thanks for popping in, guys.

39:45BThat’s not a monologue.

39:48AI’m going, I’m going. You monologue means you’re quiet. It means so low. performer. Listen, everyone else is listening, understood? So essentially how this is gonna go, James, honestly, really interesting platform. I’m, I’m excited to dive in deeper with you. What’s the best way to connect? I see, um, that there’s an email.

40:09CEmail is the best way for me. Yeah, I’m a traditional email person.

40:12APerfect. Amazing. Um, and then your -- do you have a Calendly of sorts if we -- if I was to dive deeper into this and then need Back and forth is not in my life. Well, yeah, that -- I got -- I kind of ended it because I got distracted.

40:28BOh, good. Oh, good. I’m glad you got it. Do your thing.

40:32AUm, okay, cool email. And, uh, yeah, no, I’m honestly really interested in how we can use this. Uh, Maceo did a wonderful job of, uh, picking the right candidate for just like sharing. I always like seeing what people do and then I’ve seen a lot of different things that I wouldn’t even try to implement. And this is something that I think can be like unbelievably beneficial to some of the different platforms, not only I’m making, but then also partners are making. So I’m gonna definitely try it out and I’m excited to tap in with you more on how it works and how we’re playing around with it because some of these things are things that I’ve tried to play around with and build, but just haven’t been successful. So I’m excited to just like toss this repo right at those things immediately and see like, hey, like what are the things we’re missing? Because there’s a lot of things that I just didn’t have the time to and bandwidth to figure out. So I’m excited to see how we can use this and like level it up. So yeah.

41:35BI would love to see a document that outlines what MW, like what this thing does once your Claude has told you. I think that, um, yeah.

41:44CCan you read us a line of like what it said?

41:48ASure. So the first was just telling me about the different key repos, which honestly I figured I was looking at that through the README myself. So I honestly didn’t even run the Zao research command because I, uh, I didn’t -- I wasn’t thinking about it. So now it’s gonna actually pull -- make a research article, uh, about like looking through it. I was more, again, like I was saying, reading for myself. So It was telling me that the org was created in 2024, Jan 10th, which was interesting. And that makes sense with you think starting to -- I mean, imagine you’ve started building it somewhere else on a different org when you had just started there in 2023. And then it’s just telling me about a bunch of these different repos. Yeah, workflows, blue review, auto execute, trade execute. different things about Kalshi and Polymarket, which are both things that would be interesting for me to play around with agents.

42:48CAre you doing the prediction markets?

42:49ABecause I have -- we have a music prediction market, so I’m curious to see what I could play this harness up against that, because we’ve been ideating for quite some time about an on-base AI agentic side of our Wave Wars trading league. And that is super possible with something like this, especially if we only let people create AI agents, like, if they know about it. It’s not just like randos coming in, like, participating in the thing. Not that they couldn’t, but like having AI agents customized for like the in-person people that are -- there’s a lot of things here that I think could be really perfect for Wave Wars, um, specifically. And then some of those also line up really well with Zao, which are really cool. Like, I’m interested to see the mental health part of it and like how that dives -- how that is incorporated in the agent. Like, I understand training and stuff, but like, what is the -- what part of the agent is helping you with the mental health part?

43:59CThe Damon model. So we have a research hub paper for like a proposal grant. And it’s like a, it’s a, it’s a research report on just how we utilize it and how it’s different from like other RAG models. So basically, it has like an unconscious layer and just like acts sporadically in thought on its own.

44:21AVery cool.

44:24CTo add randomness and chaoticness in any case study.

44:32BI have a final question. Will you two contribute any money to our $500 pizza day bounty? And the bell is in. No one will contribute money. It’s okay. We’re not stingy. We’re just well invested in what we’re up to.

44:57AYou’re saying in general?

44:59CI mean, like, are you both raising it for you?

45:01AI’ll finish it off at the top $20. When you’re at $480, I’ll give you $20.

45:07BOkay, smooth. Boom, that’s $20, bro. In my brain, that means we’re $20 up. I like that.

45:12AWell, but you can’t count it until you’re at $480.

45:14BThat’s okay. I’m at like, I’m at like $370 something right now.

45:18AI know.

45:18CWait, you need to raise $500 for the pizza?

45:22BNo, I’m doing -- we’re doing a video, a video content bounty of $500 so people can win $500. We’re going to judge their content. And, and essentially my goal is to bring out 50 content creators from around the world through Pizza DAO to show us their reporting chops, their content creator chops. The chance --

45:41Cso the $500 is split between 50 people?

45:43BNo, $500 is given to one person that we subjectively choose, like it’s American Idol. Sorry.

45:48COh, will you guys choose me if I’m just like, hey guys, I know you?

45:53BWait, I thought, I thought it was over. I thought it was coming backstage before. You look like this guy, you can probably get $500 easy. I’m gonna accept for guys who look like Drew.

46:03ADo you have any last thoughts, Drew? I have to go, guys.

46:06BAlso, I missed, I missed half the podcast.

46:10AYou should watch it back.

46:12BI don’t think it would be fair for me to have last thoughts. Okay, I think I think you guys should just cut the pod on YouTube before I even come in. No, what are you talking about? I think the last seven minutes have been like dead air. Your face is punctuation, baby. Your face is punctuation. Peace. Amen. And then cut. Uh, but thank you everybody for coming and watching us. Oh, you cut me. You cut me, not the pod. Drew gave $1 earlier today. Shout out to Drew. So what about you, James? Can we count on you to contribute to our pot?

46:47CI’m currently fundraising myself right now. We have a fundraiser on Artisan going on. We’ve given $15 grand out of our $33 grand goal. So if anybody is --

46:58Bif anybody’s showing on this stream, it’s me. I’m the guest. I’m the guest. All right, guys, go support James on Art and go support Mental Health Academy. Go donate money right now. Come and click this so he can get more people to give money to him and empower the, the DAO tooling, the personal development.

47:20CGo straight into the ecosystem.

47:21BThat’s right, baby. You’re not funding James.

47:24CYou’re getting that funding. So there’s 5 funds still matching us. So your $1 could equal $4 for us.

47:31BEducation doesn’t work. He’s the solution. Come get it. Come get it. It’s hot now. It won’t be a year from now. Come get it while it’s hot. AI is taking over. Are you trained?

47:39CThe AI