0:16BOkay, bet. I’ll see if I can find him.
0:18AYeah, yeah. But yeah, so what’s your vibe? What’s your read on the ETHConf? What’s the --
0:22Bwhat’s the --
0:23Awhat’s happening?
0:23BI’m super excited to be at this Ethereum conference during a builder market because this is where the builders come together to collaborate, to learn, to listen, to talk to each other, to build together. This is exactly how we build the future of crypto, is together with a community of people who actually care about building real decentralized systems. And now that’s exactly what’s happening. We’re in a room with people who actually care about real purpose, real value, and creating more value than they extract. That’s something that did not exist in any conference, any crypto conference for the past several years. So we need to get back to this. And this is exactly where we are.
1:00AAbsolutely.
1:00BSo I’m more excited than I have been in probably 4 years.
1:04AHow would you define a builder market?
1:05BI would define a builder market by money chasing talent instead of money. In a bull market, you know, money follows money and people start just chasing to chase because they want to earn more than the person next to them. Yeah, but at the end of the day, like, that money is not an objective. Money is an outcome. And you have to focus on real objectives to receive that outcome. And obviously, since people were focused on making money more so than creating real value, that the value that -- or the money that was made was not sustainable. So now we’re back down to the bottom of the bear market.
1:05BAnd everyone’s talking about Ethereum’s price action because they believe it should be higher. But the thing is, right back in 2021, Ethereum’s price had skyrocketed, what, maybe 10,000%? Why was that sustainable? Nothing has been built since in a meaningful way. Use cases haven’t been the core focus, but now use cases are once again being put into the spotlight. Use cases are the current zeitgeist, and real revenue, real cash flows is what people care about in terms of crypto-native businesses. So I think we’re getting back to reality in terms of what actually reaches people, why are those use cases meaningful to them and does it actually need crypto?
1:05BInstead of just like talking about these things in narrative, we’re actually seeing them in practice.
2:16AAnd so when you think about crypto in the real world, what’s the last time you used crypto in the real world, ETH specifically?
2:21BSo let me give you a good example around Farcon. So Farcon just happened, Farcaster’s conference in Rome, Italy. And we actually created an art auction using Max Jackson’s crypto art auction platform, which is built on the mini app on Farcaster. And the artist that we during Kismet Casa all created physical work, and then that work was sold at the art auction using this native mini app. So everyone was able to participate in this art auction. All they had to do was tap a button to participate. The artist automatically received the money from the winning bid, and then the art was exchanged right there in person. So we can create real experiences that actually bridge in real life and on-chain by collaborating between, across sectors, across disciplines, across skill sets, like developers and artists working together. these residencies at Kismet Casa.
3:13AOkay. And do you feel like ETH is doing its job right now?
3:16BI think Ethereum is doing its job. I think a lot of people question whether the Ethereum Foundation is doing their job. But at the end of the day, these things are two different sides of a similar coin. So, I think whether you agree Ethereum Foundation is doing their job or not doesn’t matter because Ethereum is still doing its job every single day. And that’s what the Ethereum Foundation will continue to focus on, which is why I think at the end of the day, they are doing what they should. I also believe that it would be incredible goal to have more people perpetuating more real use cases like poidh, especially from the Ethereum Foundation, etc. But, you know, it has to happen in a very organic way. These are bottom-up tools and they need to be grown as such. And of course, like, if we spend lots of money to dogfood these tools, then they’ll end up like Zora, which is dead and gone.
4:06AWhich is dead and gone. Yeah, I like that. I like that. You know, I look at you as someone who has a big perspective on the builder culture around this ecosystem, right? And how people approaching solving problems. And I’m curious, what are problems you feel like we’re not working hard enough to solve?
4:20BAny people problems. I mean, that is the current issue, right? It’s like developers don’t know how to cater to people. And that’s true in traditional markets as well, right? Like developers don’t -- how many developers do you know that actually want to do UI and UX, right? Most do not want to do front end. Most want to do backend because like that is the mindset, right?
4:37AWhy is that? Is that like where the money is?
4:39BNo, no, no. It’s about the operating system that their brain actually lives in, right? Like that’s their perspective every single day. Like when they’re living life, you know, It’s a little bit more robotic, systematic in terms of like how their brain is wired, how they even teach themselves, etc. So, it’s not that like people can’t cross the chasm between like left brain and right brain, but it’s just like you create a sort of experience and perspective for yourself. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And like developers --
5:04AWhere they have expertise isn’t on this thing. They built all this time building their expertise on the backend.
5:08BSpecifically on operating systems, right? And so like --
5:10AThat’s right. Give them their credit.
5:11BSo, well, so they view their own mind as an operating system, right? So like when you are constantly reiterating on your operating system, It’s a different experience than a normal consumer who goes to buy pizza for $1 every day. And then one day the pizza is $1.50 and they’re like, why the hell is this pizza $1.50? What is inflation?
5:30AWhat is inflation?
5:32BYeah, you know what I mean? There’s 2 different types of people who understand that they’re operating on a certain system and they have the ability to change that, and there are people that don’t. And developers tend to be on the operating system where they know they can change the reality. But it’s different because they feel that needs to happen, they’re convinced it needs to happen in a traditional way. traditional professional setting because the developers usually have the privilege of growing up into education and education sort of funnels people into the corporate setting for better or for worse. So, I think like the average developer is more, you know, minded in that sort of way where changing your reality is a part of every day where like the average consumer, you know, having the same reality every day is almost what you look for. You know, like you want -- you almost like are taught to build complacency for yourself because you think that’s like a part of the pursuit of happiness. Of course, like most people eventually realize, especially in the US, that that wasn’t the case. You know, they were sold to do a job just so they can live their life every day.
6:30AYeah.
6:30BBut eventually, you know, you need to do a little bit more than just live every day. You need to be able to create and build things that are actually meaningful to you and the people around you. But for you to have the privilege to do that is very difficult. For you to have the opportunity to do that is even more difficult. So, like, in my opinion, crypto is what opens up the ability for more people to pursue their passion and for them to capture value in this brand new economy that we have to create. But that’s the thing, is this new economy economy hasn’t been created yet. We have to set up the rails and the infrastructure for this new economy.
7:00AHence it being a bottom-up -- these are all bottom-up tools to enable that economy, which is still pending.
7:04BExactly. So, we need to support more people who are building these bottom-up tools, but that’s the issue, right? Because the only people that have an incentive to support these sorts of initiatives are people who could potentially make money from it. So, it’s just that since the objective is to make money and it is not like to create value and then the outcome is money, since it is now reversed, I mean, that’s why why the builder market’s amazing, because we’re starting to go back.
7:29AYeah, but it’s definitely pushed me.
7:31BExactly. I mean, this is the incentive structures of crypto, right? And we’re here to rebuild incentive structures.
7:37AThat’s true.
7:38BAnd so I think like, this is why we need to be more thoughtful. And this is why people expect Ethereum Foundation to be more thoughtful around the incentive structures for builders, etc. Because if it’s too traditional, now only privileged people in opportunity can actually do these things. And as we both know, like, that’s just the traditional system. So like, why the fuck would we rebuild an old economy in a new way. It makes no fucking sense. It doesn’t benefit me or you in any way, you know. So like, I think it really makes -- like, we need to align incentives around people and individuals to care more about these sorts of bottom-up tools and initiatives rather than like perpetuating corporations.
8:15AAnd, you know, and so what are the -- who are the kinds of people that you think should be experimenting with these kind of bottom-up tools that aren’t in crypto at all?
8:22BI think like Penny’s a really good example for Boyd. I think the perfect way to put it is the people who care about these problems. You don’t have to be the smartest, you don’t have to be the best, You don’t have to be the most connected. You don’t have to have the most resources. You do need to be the most passionate. And I think that is a true differentiator because passion can turn into, can be converted into resources, network, etc., but not vice versa. It’s really hard. It’s impossible, in fact, to convert resources into passion. So, I think we need to be working forward in terms of giving people a pedestal. And I think this is where crypto got a lot right in the past, where when you were building an ICO or you were a researcher or or something like that, you were doing so because you cared about that very specific niche. Like, even DeFi Summer happened because there’s a lot of finance bros who like actually cared about solving these like very --
9:11AThese inefficiencies.
9:15BYeah, these very -- it feels invaluable. Like, it almost feels like these things are invaluable to society because they’re so hyper-financialized. But at the end of the day, like, they do solve like certain mathematical problems, etc. And I think like that is exactly what, like, what was allowed to happen by having individuals just care about something and then start to put their time and attention towards it. Eventually, a lot of those people were in higher echelon communities. So when they weren’t making money and their peers were, and their peers said, oh, you’re doing this crypto research and now I’m making more money than you, then they feel bad and now they have to go make money. So they’re just in the deeper, higher level rat race. They’re not actually better than anyone. They’re playing the same game that everyone else is at a higher level.
9:59AYeah, with more volume.
10:00BExactly. And then they get stuck in trying to now build product instead of doing the meaningful research they were doing. So I think like, you know, it doesn’t matter where --
10:09AIt goes back to the whole corporate profit margins chase.
10:11BExactly. So like, I don’t think like people who do have more opportunity or more privilege end up creating more value. I think that’s -- it usually is probably the opposite, um, just because like they have an incentive to create less because companies pay them to stop creating value so those corporations can literally capture more. You know, like it’s like traditional tech, right? Facebook doesn’t hire people out of new grads for, uh, talent. They hire new grads to take talent off the market. Yeah, right. So like Coinbase plays that same game, right?
10:36AAnd that’s why like it’s They want to challenge their components by making it less -- more resource scarce. Exactly.
10:42BLess people to work with. It’s a way to compete in a market. It’s not a way to create value. Right. And so I think like this is -- yeah. And so I think this is the differentiator in crypto is like it’s not about building monopolies and oligopolies. It’s literally about doing the opposite. It’s about creating like truly valuable products and experiences that people use every day. And that’s where everyone gets it wrong because they don’t -- no one wants to create experiences that people use. They want to make money. Right. So like they want -- they just want to create the token first, sell the investors on the token. And then they get to walk away and then someone’s left holding the bag, right? But like, if you start with a real product, you start with a real game, you know, like Valley, and you allow people to play that game in real life. What is Valley? It’s an arcade game.
11:23AOh, okay. I thought it was a crypto thing. I’m like, news to me.
11:25BIt is a crypto thing. But like, if you’re able to participate in that ecosystem, play that game, and you get in tune with that token economy, you are now like participating in it in a way that like is meaningful to you because you actually do own the value that you’re creating now instead of it being this fake Steam token.
11:41Amore of an interoperable economy as opposed to these nested economies, which aren’t really accessible to the real world.
11:46BAnd now, of course, you still need some level of network effect to allow that to scale, something like that to scale and to even be profitable or sustainable even. But at the end of the day, these are the experiences that will bring people on-chain and will show the real use cases that we began this conversation talking about.
12:03AOh, yeah. Anything you want to say about Farcaster, about Kismet Casa?
12:06BYeah, Farcaster, everyone should be using it. It’s inevitable. I mean, as much as I want to onboard people every day, I don’t even have to because I know Every motherfucker on this planet’s gonna be using it in five years. So I really don’t.
12:18AHell yeah, super bullish.
12:19BYeah, I’m so fucking bullish on Farcaster. It’s insane. I mean, there’s no experience that even comes close. Kismet Casa’s out here creating a shitload of value for Farcaster natives and bringing them to Farcon. So I we won’t stop.
12:33AOh yeah, and then can I get a booyah?
12:35BOh, booyah, baby!
12:36AOh yeah.
