An artist manager on fans, touches and wallets.

0:02AEveryman Jack. Hello everyone, and welcome to another episode of We Them Niggas. I’m excited today and honored today to have Kristin Jewell here with us of Jewell Concepts. I connected with Jewell -- with Kristin doing research for Water and Music this past fall, which was super enriching for me, super informative. And I absolutely loved working with you, Kristin. I think it helped me to understand the Western music landscape way more than I would have being in any other environment. Um, and I thank your leadership on the project. Definitely helped us get the, get the project done. Um, and definitely, uh, facilitated me learning about the space through meeting people in a really meaningful way. So I’m very appreciative of you doing that, leading that project, and of you taking time today to be on the podcast as well.

0:43BAbsolutely. It was, it was, and has always been my pleasure.

0:46AI got that. Um, I guess where I would really love to start is hearing about, like, uh, can you introduce yourself, tell my audience a little bit about your background?

0:56BOh yeah, for sure. So, Kristin Jewell, I founded Jewell Concepts, which is my management company, 10 years ago in 2013 after leaving a 25-year career in advertising and brand strategy and also innovation and technology. And we got to touch some music elements as well. I got to touch some music elements as well over the years. with some labels and also some projects within some of the brands I’ve worked on. In 2013, when I decided to start Jewel Concepts, it was to focus on helping to guide artists to know their worth. Because the musicians that I did work with over those 25 years, I, you know, I knew we had bigger budgets than what they were asking for.

0:56BYou know what I mean? And there were just things that I thought, oh, maybe they could get you some help, frankly. And some of them had asked me before, and I thought, I’m not really ready to manage humans like that, you know, because it’s very different to manage a team than it is to manage an artist. And so it wasn’t until I was later, you know, more skilled, had my tenure done, things that I had wanted to do where I was like, I now know I need to do this job. Like, I want to help people. So yeah, it’s been 10 years of management. And also, as you mentioned, a couple years ago, you know, I think when the world paused, I started a podcast and a web series called Uncut Jewels, which then led me to realize there’s a lot of really interesting other people out there, right?

0:56BLike, not just my artists doing things, and I wanted to help them too. And so the research became a way for me to expand my mind and also learn something that I could try and help guide for the future with my artists, you know, knowing that everything was just so uncertain. So yeah, it was like a big exploration, I think, for us all.

2:49AAnd what was, I guess, coming into this space, coming into artist management, what was like, what was that transition like for you? I’m starting to take on artists. Who were the first artists that you worked with, like, just when you started doing freelance?

3:03BYeah, so, well, interestingly, I was pursued by an artist, a band initially that was an Australian band. And then, you know, through working with them, I sort of realized like, I do need to like love what I’m doing, right? And like, it has to be a big passion point. So really, the first artist that I got behind, like truly behind, was a band called Intergalactics, an Australian band. That’s a 2-person band that we did an EP together. And then they introduced me to -- well, they -- one of their talents was a bassist who also worked with Hamish Anderson, who’s an artist that I work with now still.

3:03BAnd so we brought him in in 2014. For brand strategy and then evolved into management with him as well. And then there was Ruby Vell and the Sulfonics. So Hamish Anderson is out of Australia. Ruby Vell and the Sulfonics are out of Atlanta. And I actually have been a fan of Ruby’s since 2010. I started buying her 45s. You know, I don’t know if you know what 7 inches look like, those like little 7 inches. So I spin DJ I do soul sessions and, you know, kind of like hip-hop stuff. So at one point when I was at Fat Beats buying records, if you can believe it, they were like, oh, you need to listen to this girl out of Atlanta, Ruby Vel and the Soulphonics.

3:03BAnd so I bought it and I was like obsessed. And then in 2020, sorry, 2012, she released her debut album and I bought it for everybody. And at that time I was friends with Gary Clark Jr. and his band, and I said to him, I was like, yo, like, she’s amazing. She should totally open up for you. And he’s like, oh girl, she opened up for me in Atlanta. And then his drummer was like, I used to be her drummer. I can introduce me, you know, you to her. And that’s actually how we got together because like the drummer, Johnny Rattlehat, shout out, was like, you, you love her so much, you should manage her because she was looking for management.

3:03BAnd so yeah, we started working together and then I took her solo so that she could do some sync work and she crushed it, like completely crushed it. And then we worked to regain her masters back from that debut album, which had been taken by a label. So it’s been, you know, a good -- well, I guess it’s almost 10 years. It’s 9 years we’ve been -- wait, 2013. Actually, next year will be 10 years that we’ve been working together and it’s really been, I think, for both Ruby and I, a big learning on what it means to regain your voice, to regain your truth, you know?

3:03BAnd then there’s been others. I work with Justy out of New York right now, out of Staten Island, Brooklyn. She is a queer and lesbian person of color, does amazing, amazing, amazing work around that. conversation on TikTok, on all of her platforms. She’s a part of the Studio Space, which is a brand that I’m also advising. She’s been building her room there, her studio space. That’s a real conversation going beyond the music because she’s Chillhop, right? So she’s saying amazing things. She’s got like a flow, kind of like a Jay-Z vibe, you know, like really like Anderson .Paak, like very talented. Um, in fact, I met her on Clubhouse because I was looking to manage someone who sounded like that Anderson .Paak Free Nationals Ari Lennox kind of vibe, and she fit the bill.

3:03BSo I was really psyched. And her conversation around mental health, especially in the Black and queer world, I’m so grateful she wants to do that. She’s young and it is not easy to hold that conversation. So for the last year and a half, we’ve been -- 2 years, we’ve been supporting her in all of those initiatives. I think she’s done some great things. Like we got her Submitted for a grant from Live Nation and Citibank. So she got a beautiful $10,000 grant last year and she’s been part of their emerging LGBTQ series for the last year. So that’s been great. Men’s Warehouse came to the table and did a really nice activation when we -- she did Brooklyn, she did Pride last year in New York.

3:03BAnd so they fitted her, outfitted her with a suit, custom suit. It was really, it’s been great for her. I’ve been watching her rise and I just, I’m a big fan. So Justy out of New York, Chillhop. And then we’ve worked with other artists like Shelly Piken, who’s, you know, wrote Bitch, What a Girl Wants, Almost Doesn’t Count. We released her album. We’ve released work for Jessica Childress, who’s done incredible things and has really taken over a sync and co-producing capacity as well. She’s doing great things. Yeah. So I’m very excited to have touched so many artists. The Maine Squeeze. I mean, over the last decade, we’ve had It’s just like tremendous talent come in and work with us.

3:03BAnd I’m, you know, it’s, for me, it’s like a journey in and of itself to guide people on that, you know, the process, ’cause this is an ever-changing landscape. I mean, 10 years ago, it was completely different than today with how you put out music really. And so, you know, things have come, you know, that are more in the innovation and technology space that doesn’t necessarily relate to my artists right now, but we know there’s things to consider for the future. So that’s why even, you know, like my work isn’t just management, my work is futurist, right? Like understanding where things could be going to try and help them meet that at some point.

3:03BBut the most important thing that they need to do is be authentic and real. And who they are, and sometimes that means you don’t get the attention that you think you deserve right away. But eventually, you know that pendulum always swings with music, and you know like five years ago the electric guitar was completely dead, and they were like, “Is anybody going to do it?” And now, like the pandemic, everybody got an electric guitar and learned how to play guitar or bake bread. So I don’t believe in hype cycles, and I just want everyone to do what they feel is. is theirs to hold.

9:09AI got that. And I guess something that really stood out to me hearing you talk about the artists that you’ve worked with is something that you really value is like the authentic expression component. And I’m really curious to hear like, how do you, how do you work with someone to help them cultivate that authentic voice as they’re kind of like building their brand, but also building their identity and like voice as an artist? Like how do you see that?

9:29BYeah, I have a, because of my background in brand and strategy, I have a very, very rigorous process for this. And it’s probably unlike what most people do. Unless you’re in social media, I would imagine you should be doing this because it’s really gonna help you get to some of the nuances of the conversation. But, you know, obviously I have a long-term career, like work with some of these artists. So it’s a lot easier when you know someone, but when you’re onboarding some new artists, the, you know, for me to understand where you’re at, we do deep dives just like you would any brand. You know, you spend the time and you understand who are.

9:29BSo I have questionnaires that are like designed to not just understand their music piece, but who they are as a person. Because when you’re, you know, when you’re trying to -- like, Justy’s a great example, Ruby’s a great example. Like, they’re both activists, they’re both interested in having a bigger conversation, and their music reflects that, you know. That’s a really important piece to them. So when it comes to thinking about their brand, it’s very, very different than I would with like a Hamish Anderson who’s like really trying to educate and remind people where Black music came from, right? He’s, you know, he’s in the blues space, blues rock, and everything comes from, you know, blues basically, you know, gospel, Black music, all of that.

9:29BSo he’s extremely knowledgeable about that world, but he’s not necessarily an activist. He’s just an educator, right? So it’s like there are different nuances in how, there are nuances in how you approach positioning and messaging through those things. I think when you do a deep dive like that, you know, if someone tells you they’re interested in gardening or someone else is like, I really like to work out, like, you know, you don’t -- you’re not going to be like, hey, let’s do a playlist. You know what I mean? Like, you, you use those things to sort of like bring elements of who they are into the conversation.

9:29BIronically, you know, as you think about some of this stuff, I do believe there should be a sense of mystery about some things. You know, like not everything needs to be out there for everyone to know. So I let artists decide what is their sort of boundary. I do prefer to hold things so that we can also, as you release music, use those conversations as a way to build the strategy to when you release, right? So it’s not just like every day, here’s who I am. It’s here’s who I am. Sometimes it’s strategically underscoring some of the release strategies we have. For instance, like a song might have something specific that it’s addressing, and you can now go back and be like, oh, you might, you know, you’d mentioned that you were interested in this.

9:29BHow does this relate to that? Can we integrate these other work, you know, or things you’re interested in, in this new conversation about this song, for instance, or the video? So we start with that. And then we spend time together and try to understand it. I listen to everything and guide them through the A&R process. I did forget to mention the Gold Souls out of Sacramento. Sorry, that’s another band I work with. And, you know, they’re a great example of they’ll hand me like an 8-minute song and I’m like, this needs to be cut down. Like sometimes artists, you know, just need to remember, yes, it could be an 8-minute song, but is that going to really help you?

9:29BLike, does it make sense? How does it serve the song? What are you doing for the song, right? That starts to feel like more of a production piece. So I do get involved in like the A&R, what songs are going out when, you know, what that -- because everything matters because I’m also the one helping to release it. We don’t have labels. We are all about independence, right? So we have distribution companies. Sometimes they can come to the table more than others. But yeah, you have to, you know, we do all the digital marketing. We do everything that we can to help these guys. So I can’t just, you know, put something out like you need time, you need.

9:29BAnd I always tell them, you know, prepare between. So a brand in my experience to have a consumer connect with the brand, it takes like 22 to 27 different touches that they hear the word, right? Once you hear that word so many times, you start to have familiarity with it. That’s how you get brand familiarness, right? Like familiarity and affinity comes from liking those experiences that you had at those 22 to 27 times. This is all very basic, right? So what you don’t want to do is like be inauthentic and, and then like miss opportunities to guide them why they should be paying attention to you.

9:29BAnd while they’re doing that, they’re making decisions if they want to stay with you, right? So I’m always very cognizant, cognizant of, you know, what message they put out and where, right? TikTok is gonna have a different soundbite than something like Twitter or, you know, a newsletter or, you know what I mean? Like there’s so many different ways and those are all touches. So those --

14:30AYeah.

14:30BYou also need content. And I will be the first person to say I’m not a fan and I don’t necessarily subscribe to the idea that a viral TikTok moment is going to give you the career you want long-term. And I think I’ve always felt this way that like, These are episodic experiences, not necessarily designed to like put seats in a theater, right? Like it’s a moment. And frankly, it’s like sometimes under a minute, right? So it’s like, how do you know that you’re gonna wanna spend 2 hours with an artist in a theater? You know, so, and that’s what you wanna be able to build to, a 90-minute set where you’re headlining. That’s a very long period of time.

15:11AYeah.

15:11BKind of in disconnect with what I see on TikTok. But that’s just what I see, again, looking at the future. I feel like the most important thing you could do is continue to do your live show performance and engage people while you’re there and just make them feel like they wanna come back. Like this is something they wanna see over and over again. So I’m more interested in things like radio, which I believe is a really, really great engagement strategy. I’m really interested in -- I like playlisting because I think building relationships with playlisters is interesting. But, you know, Like I said, artists, some artists are really interested in TikTok and I’m not gonna stop them from doing it.

15:11BJustyce has crushed it on TikTok, but I don’t, you know, I’d like for her to be able to translate that to something very specific in market. And that’s how I think. So all of those touches lead to the ability to get them to do a behavior you eventually want them to do. Like, you know, listen to your song, buy your song, preorder your song, watch your video, go to your show, buy a ticket, buy a t-shirt, you know. This is a very transactional relationship. I want it to be where it’s really engaged and people are talking to each other, which is why I like Web3.

15:11BSo, but yeah, there’s lots there.

16:25ANo, there is so much there. And I hear a lot of people and I think like the, like the direct engagement, like the move away from parasocial relationships with fans and just a simple transactional distance, I think is a lot of what excites me as well. But I actually wanted to ask you to speak to like what you enjoy about the play, like building relationships with playlisters. I feel like I hear a lot of people talk about the value of building your TikTok presence and like generating those moments. But I feel like I hear way more seldomly artists, especially in hip-hop, talking about the value of trying to get on playlists and connecting with playlisters. So what has that been like for you kind of having to navigate that for your artists?

17:00BYeah, well, so I don’t really deal with hip-hop. I deal with chill hop, which is like neo-soul, if you will. So most of the stuff, like it’s soul, blues, rock and roll. But in pop, you know, kind of pop rock and stuff like that. But, but, you know, I think that what you have to remember is you’re building relationships with people in this industry and playlisters don’t go away because they’re making their list like they’re making playlists. So, and that’s what they want to be doing. I think there are some tools, you know, like I’ve watched Justy’s on SubmitHub and she uses it very, very aggressively, which I think is great, like underscoring the importance of the community she’s building there.

17:00BI like to also engage Pandora and Apple Music and those people in advance just to let them know what’s going on. I feel like when you build a rapport with them and when you use those tools, like I’m a big fan of Pandora. I think Pandora is like one of the things that no one really, I don’t know, for whatever reason they don’t talk about it, but all the tools are free and that audience is huge. Plus they’re now connected with SiriusXM. So I know that at some point that’s going to cross over. So I just feel like, you know, it’s going to take time, but there is -- there’s got to be some, you know, it’s like you give interest in their job and you get back.

17:00BAnd I just love the people that we work with at those places. I also feel like there are some who are and have been instrumental in getting our artists on just their own individual playlists on SubmitHub or off of it. And, you know, I mean, there’s, they can really make a difference, you know, because they touch so many people and some of them are even more influential than you could imagine. You know, just being on a playlist can give you, they get awareness, right? Like I remember for instance, when we released something with Intergalactics back in the day, you know, I got a call, an email from Interscope and they had been checking out what we were doing on SubmitHub.

17:00BYou know, I mean, that’s pretty remarkable to think that, like, it was a while ago, but these A&R people are looking to see what’s going on there. So yeah, whether you want to become, you know, a label person or not, it doesn’t even matter. It’s just they’re looking. So it’s kind of -- it’s good. And I do believe, like I said about radio, you know, people talk about how expensive it is. It is the ultimate engagement strategy if you can get someone to play your record on the radio. And I know everyone’s like, oh, who listens to the radio? A lot of people, a lot of people still.

17:00BLike, it’s like, you know, Spotify or the DSPs are like a third of discovery. You know, YouTube is like at the top of the chain for music discovery a lot. And then there’s the radio and it’s like, what are you going to do? Like, it’s there. And if you can get them to play it, then they get behind you. And when you go on tour, you can be like, hey, I’m doing a tour in your market. Would you like to come? You know, that’s, Or give them tickets to give away, you know, that’s engagement strategy. So yeah, it’s a little old-fashioned, I think, in today’s world because, you know, it’s not as much of a sexy thing as like a Spotify digital.

17:00BBut if you think about it on the backend, even though radio doesn’t pay you to be, you know, like, in fact, sometimes you have to, you have to help grease the wheel on some things, which we don’t do. But like a lot of artists I know are responsible or labels are responsible for helping to get that sort of grease of the wheel going. The net-net is you have a wider presence, right? Because more and more people are listening. And if you get a drive time, you know, and then there’s a Shazam, you can start to identify where your audience is. And that’s another reason why I believe in sync, because, you know, again, coming from advertising, like, I’ve seen firsthand what it feels like to, you know, see an artist’s life change from a sync, you know.

17:00BAnd the validation is those -- are those shazams that come in after you get a really great sync.

20:54ANo, that makes a lot of sense.

20:55BBut yeah, playlisters are really -- I think they’re good. They’re working really hard, you know?

21:01ANo, I got that. And I get that you’re also working very hard. And I think it’s super dope to hear the way that you approach stuff. And I’m interested to hear if like your approach to marketing and thinking about fan engagement was shifted at all, like kind of leading the research project that we were working on. And if so, like how so?

21:16BApproach to fan journey?

21:19AApproach to like engaging one’s audience. And like you were saying, like the direct engagement is so important, especially trying to get 27, 22 experiences with the fan where they’re starting to start to think about their relationship to you and like, do they identify with you? Do they like those experiences? Have you reconsidered or thought of new ways to approach doing that with artists that you work with based on like this new digital engagement you’re seeing artists experiment with?

21:42BYeah. I mean, look, I love watching the Novak Collective team do their releases in the Web3 space. I think they’ve just nailed it. Like how you, you give before you get, you give before you ask, and you’re creating these like breadcrumbs, if you will, the tokenizing of the communities, like all of these things. I mean, it excites me to no end to see Annika Rose rise because You know, she started talking before she started singing about the environment and the world she’s in in Web3 and the team that’s behind her and what they’re building. And then she started performing and you’re like, oh my God, this woman was signed at like, I don’t know, 9 or something or 13. And like --

22:24AI didn’t know that. Wow.

22:25BYeah, she was -- she’s worked with like, um, I’m forgetting the name of the guy who did the voice, I think, or the X Factor, X something. He’s the famous one, Simon Cowell. Like, I think she was a part of like stuff like that. And I, you know, when I hear -- when I first heard her, I was like, why is she doing this? And then I heard her voice and I was like, I get it. She’s like pop rock. It inspired me to think like, what could I do with my artists? So, you know, I think, you know, there are -- the idea of building the community is an important one.

22:25BRuby’s done a really great job. Jesse’s done a really great job. We’ve got, you know, people on Team Hamish posting without us having to do it now, which is great. You know, it’s like you see the evolution of people excited about their future. But when I see the world in Web3, I know we still have work to do because, you know, none of my artists have released anything on-chain. However, I did for Uncut Jewels, for that podcast I was telling you about. I did mint something so that I could understand what it means because Uncut Jewels was designed during the pandemic. It was designed to be an environment where we could talk, we could bring, it was supposed to be a membership-based thing.

22:25BSo you had to like join like the experience. And then it was only for these people to go and partner together and support music. And then because of the pandemic, I opened it up to everybody and we did the web series live and then we put it out as a podcast. But when I look back on that, the press release that we put out about that, the only word that was missing that would have gotten it to a Web3 experience would have been on-chain. Blockchain, right? Something like that. Everything else was designed the same way where it’s like you come in, you get nominated to be a part of something.

22:25BYou know what I mean? It’s like artist to artist. It was like a peer experience. And had I thought to put something out on chain or had I been able to know that we could have minted some of these, I mean, we still can go back and do it. And that’s why I started the first mint I did for Uncut Jewels. To show my artists what it felt like and to prove, to show me what it felt like to do this. Because you know, you really do need to go through it yourself. We I meant to ten. I only gave myself twenty four hours, and it’s supposed to unlock other things, and it will mean something someday.

22:25BSo this is where I’m like, we’re doing these pieces. I’m doing what I can with the art. You know, like I like that piece of art behind me is mine. I’ve done art. that’s mine. So I’m putting that on chain. My artists have songs, eventually they’re going to want to do that. We tried to do a Po app, but like, it just, you know, it’s like you have to, you got to really work into, into those experiences. When Ruby released or re-released that debut album I was telling you about that we got the masters back for.

25:14AYeah.

25:14BI, in the communication that we put out with the preorder campaign to all of her fans, I did ask, do any of you have a wallet, right? Like a Web3 wallet, let me know. And out of the, I think it was like 4,000, like one had a wallet that replied, right? So it’s like, it’s not there yet.

25:36AYeah.

25:36BFor a lot of the fans, but I think it, and then, you know, that’s what we learned in the Web3 fan journey article too, right? It’s like, you know, it’s not quite there yet. The people we were talking to, if you remember, they were like, I had no idea what to expect. I like, you have to literally be onboarded to get a wallet by an artist.

25:54AYeah.

25:55BLike, that means the artist has to really know how to answer these questions. You know, that is not something you can just easily do if you don’t -- if you’re not in the space. So like, while I’m in the space, my artists have not gotten there yet, although I think Justy’s probably the closest, and Ruby, to considering doing this. Um, I just feel like I can’t guide them. I can’t tell them I’m not going to tell them to do it if there isn’t an audience there for it. But when there is, we’re going to be ready. And that’s the way I’m looking at it. We now know what we need to do and we have to work through it and figure it out. But yeah, I’m probably the most inspired of everybody about this. But yeah, you know, every once in a while you meet someone who actually is doing something in the space that’s Great. And you’re like, oh good, this might be something my artists can understand better if they see someone else doing it. Right.

26:52ANo, absolutely. And I think like your point around, like we said, 1 for 4,000, I think that is like an insane number. I mean, I think like the space is so new and so many people are like, I think public sentiment around crypto is so thwarted as I guess the word I’ll use, like it’s not good. And I think the media coverage really doesn’t make a good case for Web3, honestly. And I think that’s a big part of why I’m interested in kind of doing this podcast. Um, let’s talk to people like yourself that I think are trying to understand this space, you know, how it pertains to not just creatives, you know, but the public interest.

26:52AYou see things like decentralized public goods, um, people trying to innovate in that space in the world of nonprofit action. Um, a lot of that stuff is really exciting to me, but I think I remember doing the Web3 fan journey research and hearing people talk about like, oh yeah, like I got into Web3 and then I discovered music NFTs, but hearing artists and collectors also talk about like new people coming into the space. Um, it was so much about like, how do we create content to help them understand how to set up a wallet, how to do all these things? Um, and I feel like it’s so easy, I guess, like you’re saying, like 22 to 27 touchpoints.

26:52AI think it’s so easy to mess up one of those trying to help someone understand crypto. It’s like, why would you even go that route? Honestly, it’s like, wow, I don’t want crypto in my life.

27:55BPoint it to my nose because you’re right on the money.

27:57AAnd I think it’s, I think it’s so fair, but I think it’s also kind of what excites me about like building this platform is like talking to different people and also trying to ease, I guess, that, that I guess create an ease of access where it’s like more palatable because you’re learning from people that you’re hearing talk about the journey into space, but so much more. Um, and I think my -- I haven’t really thought so much like how do I structure content. I’m thinking in the long term it’ll be more about like creating short-form clips from these different episodes and then structuring those to be like outtakes that are specific concepts and things people can look at on TikTok and Instagram.

28:27BAnd that’s what I did. So like with the Uncut Jewels, every single episode, like when we did the Latasha one, it’s like we basically took us Like laughing because we laughed like the whole time, and it’s just like you know what just happened. You know, so you and you do you will do that, and that’s why when I started with the mint, I thought I’m going to do Uncut Jewels because it’s the one thing like I even got like Uncut Jewels dot xyz. I believe in this. I think this is going to work, and it’s going to take time. But I’ve already done you know 26 episodes, and I’m like one by one those they’re going to go on the chain like at some point.

28:27BBut I You know, it’s expensive to do. You got to figure out how you’re going to do it, who’s going to come. I don’t want to just do it while I’m talking to myself. I want to do it where there’s like people involved and people understand what it means. And I do want to do the second series, the second round, because I feel like now I know more, right? It’s like now you’re -- it’s like it’s going to feel different for me. It will be a bit more drilled down of a conversation. However, I’m not sure. that it has to own. Like, I think, you know, for me it’s like Web3, the metaverse, the idea of what an NFT can do.

28:27BI know it’s a bad word, but like the idea of having some kind of a collectible that then reveals something to your fans later or over time or often is like mind-blowing. And I’ve seen it happen firsthand with the Navat Collective people where they, you know, I bought, I was like one of 25 people who got her first NFT. I think it was minted on Bruises, and I’m fairly confident it had like an imagery that was eventually going to be in her bedroom too. It’s like we built up to something. But because I was one of 25 people, I was put on a list for a show at the Peppermint Club here in Los Angeles that I didn’t have to pay for to go, and I just showed up and there we were.

28:27BAnd then like they sent me a t-shirt at Christmas time too. It was like these turn into real life experiences.

30:21AYeah.

30:21BIt’s not just digital, but I also do think that the metaverse is a great place for people who don’t necessarily wanna go to the Peppermint Club, right? But you wanna meet up. It’s like there are so many, and she’s creating an environment that’s like a, a video game of her room where she writes her stuff. Like it’s literally her bedroom. And that video, that, that game that she’s creating, this like environment that they’ve created is now a place where people can connect and explore more with her. So it’s, it’s that detail that I feel like you’re bringing people in. It’s a safe place. We all know the world’s really tough.

30:21BA lot of people, you know, it’s like the metaverse is -- I don’t remember if you remember that research that we did, but it was the culminating thought was it’s not like Kurt Cobain said, you know, where it’s just like, come as you are. It’s literally come as you want to be. Like who you want to be in the metaverse can exist. And I feel like that’s a big place for a lot of audiences that, you know, have a slight neurodivergence to them that really don’t want to be, you know, some of them are just really introverted. They want to stay inside instead of going outside.

30:21BI was an extrovert until the pandemic. I’ve learned the art of introversion and I love it. I had no idea how restorative it could be for your soul. So, you know, would I? Yeah, of course I’ll go on these like environments and watch and listen and maybe watch Coachella from remote now. I don’t know. You know what I mean? Like, I’m getting more open to the idea that I don’t, you know, I love live music. I’ve always loved the live experience. I’m never going to not want to go in person, but there are some times where I’m like, I can’t make it. And this is a good substitution for that.

30:21BAnd I really do believe it’s, it can get better. It’s probably 20 years away still, but it, it’s going to be something that I think future generations will benefit tremendously from. existing today and keep the iterative learning going so it can get better and better in the next few decades. And I also feel like, you know, from that research in the metaverse, I really, I can, and I saw it in Web3, you know, the mindset of what people are about, I think has to be truly considered when you’re designing something. And, you know, shout out to Natalie, crew who is always championing, and Lindsay too, always championing people to have like openness about how people come to the table and what they’re about and their truth.

30:21BAnd I think that, you know, that like we’ve talked about, you know, authentic nature of who you are is important to consider when you’re designing these things, you know, and have that be a North Star, if you will.

33:00AOh, absolutely. Yeah. Shout out to Natalie. Natalie’s on our, on our core team for season 1 content, which I’m really excited to see. Season 1 community-driven content for We Them Nickas. Which I’m very excited about. I guess hearing you talk about your podcast, I’d love to hear like, what was the theme of your podcast? What are you focused on? Like, what are you trying to build with your podcast? And as you think about like going on-chain, like, what are the things that you’re trying to do before you get there?

33:22BWell, I’ll be straight up, like Uncut Jewels came out of a day where suddenly, you know, during the pandemic, you started to see people just not know where content was going. And we were getting a lot of press hits, but they weren’t translating to anything. And that happens sometimes, right? Like you get like, oh, this is a good look. This is a good look. But you’re the one that’s responsible for pushing them to that content because you’re the artist, you got the thing. So I decided I’m going to start this series during the pandemic just to talk and keep artists together, right? Like to create an environment.

33:22BOriginally, like I said, it was supposed to be this nomination process where artists nominated other artists and frankly fans. So I really wanted fans to be nominated and fans to nominate other fans. So it’s like this idea of like bringing people in and this, you know, the sort of -- I, when I worked at TiVo, we saw, you know, firsthand, look at what my TV can do, right? And then all of a sudden advocacy happens. Oh, I want that TiVo. Oh, I want that. And you all get a $50 referral and it’s like exciting. I kind of wanted to do that for this, for music. And so that’s where it was sort of born.

33:22BAnd then it became, you know, the digital marketer in me was like, if instead of paying at this time, instead of paying a lot of money for, you know, press, I’ll host these sessions with the artists, let them talk about the, you know, how they’re feeling, what’s going on, but also the music, how they got to the place where they created the music. I’ll bring the producers, I brought the producers, the directors on. Engineers, photography, people who designed the COVID art, illustrators, you name it. We had the artists come and bring their partners to talk about the process. The video directors were great because we could like share the video and talk about how we did it.

33:22BAnd, you know, some of it was like done like, you know, 5 or 6 months before. So it was really fun just to get together during the pandemic and have a reason to be together. And then it just evolved into anybody who was releasing something, we started going -- like, originally it was for my artists and then artist friends. And there was like, you know, we had Sam Morrow on, we had Latasha on, uh, we had Chris Pierce on, we had T-Nava on from the Free Nationals. I don’t know if you know who they are, but they’re super dope. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it was really fun.

33:22BAnd we had fun, and it was every Tuesday night, and we just like hung out and talked, and like, it was very chill. Um, and so it, you know, wasn’t really initially designed to be a podcast. You can probably tell Some of the audio pieces were just like, in the beginning, everyone was like, I don’t know, I don’t know, right? No one had mics. But I think because the vibe was there, we were able to pull through and we did a lot of work to get that to sound good as a podcast. So if I did it again next time, we’d record better. But nobody knew, like I was using like BeLive and, oh, it was just insane, silly stuff.

33:22BBut, you know, I’m so grateful for it because it was the first time in my career that I did intellectual property, right? So I’ve always built things for other people, but that was my first foray into media where I knew what I -- it was mine, right? It’s literally Uncut Jewels is part of me. And so I knew what that felt like. And the second thing that I’m really grateful for is you can’t get a better time capsule for the most insane period of your life than going through this all on camera And like with your friends and your people and your families and just like, what?

33:22BAnd so when you look back on it, you’re like, yeah, this -- I’m glad that we have it. You know, it will be there beyond my time on this planet, I hope. And I’m thrilled for that. Like, I think that’s a really fun byproduct benefit of the most difficult time I think we all went through.

37:12ASo yeah. Yeah.

37:14BTrying to find the silver lining.

37:16AYeah, absolutely. And I think, I think it is super like powerful and exciting to have like content. Like I love my podcast as like a vehicle to look back. Like I have some from when I was in undergrad, some of my friends from college and it’s like, oh my God, like I’m never, like, we’re never gonna have those moments again, but just being able to listen and feel like I was there. Like I have voice memos of me with friends, like rapping and freestyling and stuff like that. But I feel like the podcast is like a, a whole different level of like intimacy.

37:38BI love that.

37:39AAnd so I’m excited to start to be able to bring, like you say, this, this content on chain. I think that’s really exciting to me. Like the idea of it then definitively, at least in theory, living, living beyond my lifetime and not really being platform dependent as well is super exciting to me. I don’t know if you saw Zora announced like they’re launching their own L2.

37:55BI just saw that.

37:57AAnd I think that’s like super fascinating. So I think having ownership of networks in general has always been super like, it means a lot in any industry. And here Zora is trying to be like the network for creatives, irrespective of platform. And it’s like, oh wow. Like, I think that’s like a huge move to be making. And I know they’ve done so much. Yeah, that makes sense.

38:14BI mean, that’s the whole, it’s like why I said like, Like, you know, email is still best in my mind, right? You want to connect phone number, email, now wallet. Why not? Like, I just, I’m so interested and into this because I can tell you, I’m so -- I’m 53. I started my business 10 years ago. I was 43. For 25 years before that, I built other people’s businesses. It is not easy. to do and to connect with the consumer for a long period of time is challenging. So you have to be diligent and consistent. And that’s where I’m like, I’m so excited that these tools exist, that they didn’t exist before.

38:14BAnd it was like nobody could go direct to consumer. You had to go through layers of things to get to that. I mean, music alone has changed since 2007 just by having this digital experience. So I, you know, What I want to do is take back the power for the artists who gave away the music to Spotify and all these platforms to build these technologies that are, you know, billion-dollar businesses or million-dollar businesses. I want to take that power back and give it to them. And the only way to do that is to help them build their own networks, help them have that direct conversation with their fans.

38:14BIt is not easy to do, but you have to be, you know, railed. And consistent. Wallet makes it so much easier. Like, it’s just, just mind-blowing. Like, I wish it existed 35 years ago, but I mean, I guess it did. I maybe, I don’t even know when it started. You mean like Bitcoin?

39:48ANo, 30, 25 years ago, there was no Bitcoin. Bitcoin launched, I’m going to like throw out 2013, but it could be like 2009, 2008, and I could be wrong, but I’m not going to make any more guesses because I don’t know.

40:02BI don’t know. I do. I have a number like 2007 in my head for whatever reason, but I know that’s when the iPhone came out.

40:07AHmm.

40:08BSo yeah, but technology is like, I love it and I’m here for every single part of it. It does make it much easier when you want to continue connecting with people to have these roads. And I think that the DSPs are slowly starting to realize that that stronghold that they had on like keeping the artists and the fans separate isn’t working. And they -- I’m hoping that they’re going to start because they, you know, they could sit on these places where they can let the conversation open up more. So I still, every time I talk to somebody, you know, at these places, I’m like, when are we going to get to, you know, directly connect with the fan or at least help speak with them like you can on Pandora, which is, you know, putting that -- I’m not sure if anyone knows this, but if you don’t know it, you can put a message to your fans on Pandora AMP, and it literally plays for them before a song, like as a pre-roll or something.

41:00AOh, I didn’t know that.

41:01BYeah, it’s an incredible tool if you’re touring to be like, hi guys, I’m coming to your area. You know, it’s -- yeah, they’re the only ones that I admire doing that kind of stuff. I know Apple I love, but like for different reasons. So yeah, I got that.

41:15AYeah, I think SoundCloud really recently released like a feature as well where you can reach out to artists and other people on the platform. Which I think is exciting. But yeah, most of the time that’s not the case. Like on Spotify, Apple Music, there’s, there is no way to directly communicate or engage as a fan, especially with artists, which I think makes a lot of sense. So you don’t want to be bombarded with a bajillion messages.

41:32BNo, but I think you should be able to say, hey, I’m coming to town, or like acknowledging your fans. If you have a super fan, like on the back end, you can see like, you know, like if 1% of your fans are listening to you every day, okay, well, could you just do something to like connect with them? That’s a good fan base. So I don’t know. I just, For me, it’s just like, at least have the option. Don’t abuse it, but have the option though. I don’t know. I don’t think -- I think fans are -- artists are very aware that if you do too much, you can lose them. So it’s just the right thing. You know, you got to find your balance.

42:07AYeah. And I’m excited to see like how that all pans out, how artists start to develop new kinds of relationships with their fans, how this new like non-parasocial sort of dynamic where artists can build teams with their fans, those 1% can kind of play a more meaningful role as you see kind of in these communities and Web3 start to play out. I’m really excited to see like how artists build their careers using these new tools and these new like coordination dynamics. Yeah. And I know you have to --

42:30BI mean, honestly, I feel like we learned so much in the Web3 space that was just about continue to do like, what did you remember the big net-net was? It’s like, it’s about the music. Just give them, what do they want more of? Not technology. They want music. That’s what they want. Just keep focused on your music. Use these things to do a good job. But like, make it about the music.

42:50AYeah, and I think about the people and about the music, I think both those things are so important. It’s like you’re saying, like being able to acknowledge your fans, the role they play. Um, and like, I heard someone say recently like that there’s an artist that sees themselves like fan-dependent as opposed to independent. Um, and I think that’s like, I think that’s a really good like, like way to phrase it because I feel like without these people who are listening to us and like valuing our work, then like our work really is nothing as a creative. So I’m excited to see artists take a more fan-centric approach to thinking about themselves and building their platforms. And not really just fan-centric, but I think people-centric, you know? Like, I’m an individual, I need to take care of myself. Um, but also, like, you’re -- like, I would be nothing without you and the role that you’re playing in, like, expanding my audience, helping other people discover me. Um, so I’m very excited to see.

43:30BIt was really -- I mean, don’t you feel like it was, like, a really -- I don’t know. I mean, you were the -- you were, I guess, Tomi and, um, I’m blanking who else. Brody was there. Like, a bunch of people who were there from the beginning. I know you saw that evolution of like, how hard is it to find a fan? How, when you finally talk to them, how excited they were to be a part of something else and how almost every single one of them wanted to know other fans that were doing the same behavior. Like, that’s the richest community build. Like, they’re talking to each other. They want to be together. You know, like, that’s the part where I’m like, I, you know, when, when you’re going through that and how long did that take us? I think we started it, what was it, in August? August.

44:13AYeah. And finished it in October.

44:16BOctober. Yeah. So that was a really big part of like no one, you know, when you look back on that time, it was so new and everyone’s still, you know, trying to figure it out. And all of those people, every single one that we talked to are still in that space doing something. Like it’s pretty cool. Like the Freshmaker, he’s still like always on. I mean, CY Lee, like he has not stopped. He’s not stopped. So these are like, these are the collectors out there who are just, you know, fully committed to the space. And that’s why I believe, like I remember when, I think I’ve mentioned this before, in 1995, I went to work at a company and I was trying to get them on Blue Cross of California, which is a healthcare provider.

44:16BI was trying to get them to do a website. Right? And sitting in these meetings and remind you, like back at that time, it was like black and white screens. People didn’t have like color, right? So they’re like, wait, why do I need to have a brochure on the www.bluecrosscalifornia.com thing? And, you know, for, you know, licensors or whatever, you would send them like floppy disks and have them put things in their computer so that they could use these tools. The world, you know, was so complicated. And trying to explain that to brands felt like I was making things more difficult, right? And I was saying, this is the future.

44:16BWe’re gonna -- this is gonna happen. And no one really cared. And I feel like we’re doing the same thing today. And no one really cares, but they will once they see how valuable it can be to them. And that’s just the way we have to go about this. you know, a down cycle right now, the perfect time to continue to do the work, continue to meet the people, continue to figure out who we are, and then pull forward. The fact that the AI music piece is so popular right now, you know, is another area we should probably talk about at another time. But like, you know, that gives me more hope to, you know, you realize like we’re in a hype right now, like for media cycles, that’s just, you have to get rid of it, stop the distractions, and just keep focused on what you do.

44:16BAnd when we’re doing research and when we’re looking at the landscape, it’s all important, all of it. There’s, in my mind, no split between the hairs of, you know, working in Web3, thinking about these environments that are like metaverse or multiverse oriented, and looking at how you would use AI in any way to improve your work process, period, period. Now, ethically, there’s different questions, but I think everyone knows that, you know, we’ve got, we’ve got to figure out how to continue to make the progress without going back and imploding. So, but I, you know, very excited and I feel like I’ve been here for 35 years having the same conversation over and over again, but that’s what you do when you’re I mean, if it goes away, it’s like, then it’s a shame on everyone because we couldn’t figure out how to make it be valuable to people, right?

44:16BBut there was a point in time where Amazon was in the red for like 12 years or something like that.

47:35AYeah.

47:35BAnd no one could figure out why would anybody buy a book online, you know? Well, here we are. Amazon runs our life, you know what I mean? So, it’s like we just have to keep an open mind. Just keep an open mind and then synthesize it through your needs. And once you do that, you get to make your own most informed decision how you’re going to move forward, whether you’re an artist, a manager, a producer, an engineer, label, whatever it is, you know, just don’t ignore it.

48:05AI got that. And I appreciate you giving us your time today. I’m really excited personally to continue supporting creatives in this space. I think I heard David Hoffman say in an interview with Jacob from Zora last night, listening to their podcast, that like, Creatives come into these spaces with these new tools and they’re like, well, what do I do with this? You know, how do I use this? And I think that’s really what’s gonna like help us get to a point where we have a clear vision of like how we’re using this to bring value to people.

48:28BMm-hmm.

48:28AI think it’s about all of us speculating and ideating and, you know, iterating too. And so I’m excited to keep seeing artists do that in the bear market that you say, a down, not like a down cycle. I like, I think regardless, you know, it’s important to play, it’s important to find out. And I think it’s the only way to learn and really to be someone that can see how it’s gonna, how to make it work. So. I think paying attention to people like yourself who are thinking about it, people who are otherwise involved in water and music and just actively in this space and asking the questions, I think is the best way to be tuned into where we’re going and how it’s going to look. So thank you so much for being here and sharing your futurist perspective. Yeah, it means a lot to me and I’m excited for my audience to know who you are and to know that they can find you and see your work as a resource out in the world and discover the artists you shared about today as well. Thank you.

49:13BThank you. Well, you know, I’m a big stan, so just keep at it. You’re doing great.

49:17AThank you, Kristin.

49:18BThank you for having me. Thanks for all your help on that Web3 project too. That was really fun. So thank you.

49:24AYou’re welcome. It was my pleasure. And do you want to let people know where they can find you on socials or where they can?

49:30BYeah, I’m on LinkedIn under Kristin Jewell. I’m also Jewell Concepts on LinkedIn as well. If you go to my website, jewellconcepts.com, you can also find Uncut Jewells. You can find the podcast there, or you could go, like I said, to uncutjewels.xyz and find the podcast all there too. So obviously we’re on every single platform for the podcast, and YouTube is where you can actually go and see the crazy fun, you know, videos of what we did too. So, and then my artists are all on that website too, and I would love it if you would join us there. It’d be fun.

50:02AHell yeah. Well, I’ll link all that in the show notes so people can see uncutjewels.xyz. They can see your website. I’ll link the podcast directly so people can find their way to that.

50:12BThat’s awesome. Thank you. And then don’t forget about Water and Music and the research that we did. You should link to that too, because --

50:18AOh, absolutely.

50:18BThat’s amazing.

50:19AThe Web3 Fan Journey will be linked as well. It was an incredible experience and it was definitely a worthwhile resource to be checking out if you’re interested in the way that technology is impacting the music industry from Web3 to AI to even more stuff that I’ve yet to learn about. The rabbit hole only goes deeper and there’s a lot of them when it comes to the internet. So Yeah.

50:37BYeah. And all the advising work that I do comes from all of that experience. So it’s great. It’s like been fun. I mean, studio space has really benefited from it too. So hopefully, you know, just take a look at all this and consider the landscape for the future and join us researching everything.

50:52ABooyah. Well, thank you for coming and listening to another episode of We Them Niggas. Um, you can subscribe to this on whatever platform you’re listening from. Um, if you can rate us as well, I’d love that. I say us, but I know it’s all my content right now, but the vision is that it will no longer be just me at some point in time. So yeah, reach out to me if you’re interested in being part of our Discord where we connect with artists, support artists. I’m excited to meet you and think of how I can be of service to you. So thank you so much for listening and take care of yourself. And this is We Them News.

51:22BBooyah! Nice job. Flowers.

51:25AThank you. Thank you.