ProdbyGekko, an Artist, Producer and Engineer in New York Drill | We Them EP 8

0:00Maceo: All right everyone, welcome to another episode of We Them Niggas, a podcast I’ve been creating, uh, focused right now on trying to build community, helping artists learn about Web3, enter the space. Also focused on helping Black and brown people domestically in the US understand Web3 more broadly. What is crypto? What is blockchain? How does it pertain to us as a community? And yeah, today I’m here with Chris Edelman, a producer based in Manhattan who goes by Gecko. You may recognize producer tag Damn Gecko Crazy. I got connected with Gekko after hearing one of his beats in the song Lose Yourself, in which Gekko samples Eminem’s song of the same title, posted by an up-and-coming rapper based in Brooklyn named Fresh the Prophet. I knew as soon as I heard the beat I needed to know who the artist was behind the production, and I’ve since booked my own time with you because I love your work, and I’m excited to continue to work with you and give my audience an opportunity to learn about you as well. So I’m honored and excited that you accepted my invitation to be on the podcast today. So I really appreciate that.

0:52ProdbyGekko: Yeah, thank you so much, man, for having me. Really appreciate it.

0:55Maceo: Yeah, for sure. So I’d love to start out with this interview by talking about your roots as an artist and how you got into production and the music space in general.

1:02ProdbyGekko: Word. Yeah, I grew up playing a lot of different instruments. I started playing music at about 3 or 4 years old. My family was like very serious about me playing different instruments. So I grew up playing guitar, flute, drums, did a bit of singing and a bit of piano. So grew up with like a big music theory background. And like just kind of started from there. And then in high school I started using like Logic Pro for different composition classes, and I did IB music, so I had to do a lot of like compositions and stuff like that. So --

1:36Maceo: And how do you feel like that like shapes the way you make music now, like having like this classical training and having to make all these compositions? Like I never produced a beat, I’ve never like -- I have no idea how deep the training arc goes to really become a good producer.

1:48ProdbyGekko: Yeah, it’s definitely helpful. I’m not -- I don’t think it’s something that’s like mandatory, like you don’t have to be like really good at music theory, but it’s definitely helpful, especially when like tuning bass notes, knowing how chords work, knowing how scales work. It’s just a -- it’s helpful when making beats, but also like in a sense can be a little bit limiting because music theory creates certain rules about how music is supposed to be made and how it’s supposed to sound. So sometimes you have to like disregard the classical way of it being done.

2:20Maceo: That makes sense. And you said you used to sing as well?

2:23ProdbyGekko: Yeah, when I was very, very, uh, when I was young, you know, it was something more of like a hobby. Uh, my dad used to take me to the opera from when I was like 1 or 2 years old.

2:34Maceo: Oh yeah?

2:35ProdbyGekko: So I was super into like just going to the opera. I had like La Bohème on DVD and used to like sing along with that and like Madame Butterfly. It’s kind of crazy. I haven’t thought about that in a while. But like, that was like probably my first -- before I even got into -- I started piano when I was 4 or 5 years old. But like way before that, from like being a baby until like a 3-year-old, I was super into opera for some reason.

2:57Maceo: I mean, that’s cool. Yeah, one of my friends, my first interview on the podcast actually, his mom used to be an opera singer.

3:03ProdbyGekko: That’s really cool. Really, really incredible talent.

3:06Maceo: Yeah, yeah, she works in law now. Like what a huge pivot. Yeah, it’s like super tough. I think it’d be cool to live lifetimes like that in my life, live different lives. Do you like -- so when did you stop singing? Like it sounds like you used to love like being a vocalist.

3:19ProdbyGekko: Uh, I think I stopped singing because I was singing and playing guitar. I was in like School of Rock when I was like 11, 12. Oh yeah? And I think around then is when I quit singing. I think my voice got lower. Like, it just, it didn’t -- everyone thought it was cooler to play sports than to do music. So I started like playing baseball and basketball and kind of focused a bit more on that and took a few years off of like playing guitar and singing and music. Then when I tried again, when I got back into it, it was like the only thing I could really do anymore was play guitar and flute and like the instruments. The singing kind of My voice changed and it wasn’t for me.

3:52Maceo: No, that makes sense. I mean, yeah, I think like I did a cappella in like middle school and like I remember my voice changing. I was trying to get like solos and it wasn’t working out. Like, she’s like, your voice is kind of changing, Maseo. You don’t really know how to do this very well. Like, I used to just match like the pitch of people around me. I didn’t know like how to read the music. I was just doing my best. And I really didn’t like do any like music stuff for a while until really going to high school and like being really immersed in like hip-hop all the time. I got really paying more attention. And so now I want to, like you said, that you were, you took a break from music because you started doing like more, like focusing more on athletics. I’m curious, like how did you get back into production engineering? Like how do you find yourself where you are despite having like switched your focus?

4:30ProdbyGekko: Yeah, so that’s kind of like a bit of a long story, but when I was 16, my family sent me over to European boarding school because I was like just a wild kid. I was doing like drugs and like just being crazy at like 15, 14 for no reason. So I went to a Swiss boarding school, and then 6 months in, I got expelled from that boarding school.

4:55Maceo: Really?

4:56ProdbyGekko: Yeah, yeah. So I got -- and so I get expelled from this boarding school, and I’m angry because it’s like I was actually a really good student. I was like, you know, pretty top 5 in my class, like great PSATs, like was on the basketball team dropping 20 a game against like these other schools.

5:12Maceo: You were on your shit.

5:13ProdbyGekko: I was on my -- I was really on my shit. My only issue was that like, I -- you couldn’t really tell me shit because I knew I was on my shit. I knew I was nicer than people. I knew I was smarter and better at sports. Like, I knew I had a leg up. So like, when the authority would try to tell me anything, I’d have like kind of a negative reaction to that. So then, uh, I get kicked out of that school. I come back to the city. They let me finish the year. I think I get kicked out in like March. They let me finish the year online, thank God. Otherwise I would have had to hopefully repeat a year. Like, that would have just been a total mess. But they knew I was a good student, so they’d let me continue from the city. But then, so I kind of got back into like my partying and stuff, and I was starting to meet like rappers. Mm-hmm. I was just like, you know, like smoking weed, like doing whatever with, with all, with all these rappers. And one time one of them was like, yo, we’re going to Quad. Like, do you want to come through and see what like the studio is like? I’m like, fuck yeah, sure, I’ll go and I’ve never been to a real studio. Why not?

6:13Maceo: Like, though, and Quad was your first studio?

6:14ProdbyGekko: Yeah, Quad was my first studio. So we went --

6:16Maceo: that’s wild.

6:16ProdbyGekko: And the guy engineering that session is a dude named Corey Cuts, who ended up being my mentor down the line. But, uh, so, so I went to Quad. I’m like, maybe -- I, I think I had Logic and I was like fucking around making like some shitty beats. Like, they were ass, you know what I mean? Like, just like nothing to do with anything usable. Had like way too many tracks, like way too much going on, like nothing to do with hip-hop. So I go to Quad, I’m like, holy fuck, like, this is awesome. Like, this magician is over here, like, magically making people sound amazing. These speakers are huge. It sounds crazy in here. Like, it’s expensive, but like, this is like my happy place. Like, I can be in here sober and be like completely at peace with the world. There’s no need for any extra shit. No need to like escape anything within my head. Like, I’m just like, this is awesome. Like, this is where I want to be. Yeah. So I got really into like, first it was like really beat making. Like, I thought engineering was magic. So I was like, okay, I gotta, I’m gonna start like just get becoming a better producer, understanding how certain things work. Then after, I think I was 17 at this time. And then when I turned 18, I booked a lot of sessions with this guy, Corey Cuts. not just at Quad, but we’d go to other studios that were maybe a bit cheaper that he’d work out of. Mm-hmm. So I’d seen him work and I was beginning to understand like how his workflow works, like how gain staging worked, like how various like technical stuff, learning how compressors work, learning how -- what reverb is, what EQ is. So he saw I was like kind of learning quickly and he invited me to do an internship at Quad. He was like, I’ll like sponsor you, I’ll like get you the interview. Like, you did -- I didn’t go to like an audio school. I went to Northeastern. So I was like kind of at a disadvantage because they usually want people who go to like SAE or Full Sail. But he’s like, I got you. I’m like, I’m -- he at the time was like A Boogie’s engineer. He was like, I don’t think Pop Smoke was there yet, but like he was doing a lot of big sessions and he was NBA YoungBoy’s engineer. That’s wild. So he had a lot of pull there even though he was only like 24. So he was like, you gotta interview this kid. So I got my interview, nailed the interview, got hired as an intern, but I was at Northeastern at the same time. So I was like going back and forth. I was taking like a semester off or like doing like little, little ways of like making it so I could be in school and be

8:40Maceo: working

8:40ProdbyGekko: at Quad. Yeah, yeah. And then, uh --

8:43Maceo: So you had an internship at Quad?

8:45ProdbyGekko: I had an internship at Quad. I interned at Quad for about -- it was somewhere between 10 and 14 total months. I was an intern for a while there.

8:53Maceo: That’s dope.

8:54ProdbyGekko: It was dope. I learned a lot. I learned -- I mean, I’ve learned a lot by just doing it and by watching my friends do it, but I learned a lot of stuff there too, especially about how to deal with clients, how to -- and the basics of what gear does, what a preamp is. And also I got from cleaning a lot of rooms and taking -- doing session backups and stuff. Learning how to name sessions. I’d go in like, like my sneaky self, I’d go in and like look at people’s plugins and look at people’s workflows and like kind of like take pictures of like, oh, he used this plugin like that. Oh, he, he does this much compression. So it was like I was just kind of stealing sauce. Mm-hmm. So that, that was helpful there. And then after about 2 years, cuz I was working on and off there, I, they finally gave me my GA test.

9:47Maceo: What’s

9:48ProdbyGekko: that? Your test from going between an intern and an assistant, and then there’s from assistant to engineer. And they knew I’d already been running sessions in my home studio. It was pretty popular. I was doing 40 hours a week at Quad and then another 25 at home engineering for like $25 an hour. And the client base was growing pretty rapidly. I was getting like Smokey Margiela in there, like Asian Doll, like Yoshi 24K, like, uh, Booba Savage.

10:22Maceo: Booba Savage.

10:23ProdbyGekko: Yeah, like I was getting, I was getting some pretty cool names and like also developing some, some artists that were like getting like 10, 15K followers. So I’m like, I felt like I was low-key like a step above, not at necessarily being an engineer and running a studio session, but I felt like I was just a step above a lot of what was going on at Quad, which was very engineering-based. It’s not a place to be a producer. They don’t -- it’s very frowned upon to be a producer there, almost.

10:51Maceo: Really?

10:51ProdbyGekko: Like, you can produce and you can cook up, but like -- and it’s really -- they really want you to be a Quad employee. That’s the thing. They want you to be like very loyal to Quad. They want like you work for them, you do the sessions for them, you make them money. When you’re producing, you’re not making them money. You know what I mean? So it’s hard to explain, but there’s definitely a culture there that’s not for the producer.

11:15Maceo: There’s a power dynamic too. Yeah. Yeah. You’re an employee. That makes sense.

11:18ProdbyGekko: Yeah. So they give me my GA test and they know I’m a cocky asshole because I’m making pretty much as much money as the junior engineers there from my house. And honestly, hourly, I was making more than the junior engineers. I was making what Corey was making. I was making like $30 an hour, and he was working with big artists, and I was working with like whoever, but like I was taking in that much money. Mm-hmm.

11:43Maceo: And at home, so there’s no rent at home.

11:44ProdbyGekko: At home as a fucking 19-year-old. So when they give me my GA test, I’m expecting like, okay, patch the Neve 1073 into the CL-1B or into like some gear that like I’d actually use. But instead they’re like, you have 10 minutes to patch this summing mixer that’s mislabeled on the patch bay, which is like how you plug things into the next thing. Mm-hmm. So I’m like trying to figure it out and I’m like, they purposely like plugged things into the wrong things. I’m like, I knew that was going to happen. So I, before I’m even patching, I’m like going in, making sure the XLRs are going into the right ports. I’m like, okay, trying to fuck with me. I, I fixed all that shit super quick and then I’m trying to patch this summing mixer, which I’d never use. I mean, we work on hip-hop. I don’t know why there even is a summing mixer.

12:33Maceo: I have no idea what a summing mixer is.

12:35ProdbyGekko: It’s just like, bro, honestly, I don’t even understand the point of a summing mixer. It’s just a big piece of gear that essentially does what fucking Pro Tools does by itself.

12:44Maceo: Okay,

12:46ProdbyGekko: so I’m trying to patch in this shit and there’s no signal going through. I’m like, you know what? I give up. I can’t get any signal through it. He’s like, oh, you should have known that these 2 things are opposite on the patch bay. This is labeled this, this is labeled that, but these are each other. So they purposely gave me some fucking mislabeled gear that like I’m not going to use. Mm-hmm. So I got really fucking angry and I basically stormed out. I’m like, I’m not working here anymore. Like, I’ve had offers from, from Premiere. I’ve had offers from other studios to go and intern there. Like, or I could just do it at home and like build my own business, which is what I ended up doing. So I stormed out, quit quad. Didn’t look great on Corey, but like, we’re good now. So in, in the end, like, I -- maybe if, if I could go back in time, maybe I would have tried it one more time, the test. Yeah. But at the time, I was also really busy. Like, I was linking Smokey 3, 4 times a week. I was going flying out to LA, staying in his house. Like, I was like meeting a lot of people and I was in a lot of rooms. And I just felt like -- and I wanted to produce more. I wasn’t really trying to be a quad engineer at that point.

13:53Maceo: That makes sense. And so the test wasn’t like the end-all be-all by any means.

13:58ProdbyGekko: Yeah, yeah. So I mean, I, I was kind of ready to quit anyway. Like, they’re like, oh, you can pass this test, you’ve worked here for 14 months, you can pass this test to go from making $0 an hour to making $10 an hour. I’m like, I make 3 times that at home, cash, no taxes, you know what I mean? So So I ended up leaving Quad and, uh, like really focusing on my home studio, just, uh, you know, really locking in with certain clients, doing a little bit more marketing, like, uh, and also just like buying gear, like making it the right environment. Hmm. So I was very lucky, like my parents had a pretty nice setup in, in the city and I had like a whole room that was just for my studio. All right, so I, I took these 2 queen beds, I made a gigantic like chill couch and put like this Grateful Dead like fabric on it. So it looked like psychedelic and shit. And I had this like white chair that was made out of linen and like everyone would sign their names on it, which was really fire because like when people would come, like regular artists would come in, they’d be like, oh my God, Asian Doll was here. And like Smokey Margiello was here. Like, whoa, like this is sick. Like I’m recording where they record.

15:03Maceo: Yeah.

15:03ProdbyGekko: So it created like a kind of like a community. Also had some like some cool art in the room, like because I come from a family that like represents artists and my grandmother’s an artist. So I’d just throw up some some cool photographs, some cool art, like create a vibe. It didn’t have a booth, so, uh, I had like this like fake like little makeshift outdoor booth with like fucking plastic tubing with some like fucking packing material around it.

15:28Maceo: Yeah, people -- I’ve seen like tanning booths.

15:31ProdbyGekko: Yeah, yeah, yeah, you know, you make it work, you make it work. Yo, it just sounded good for the time, for where I was at. It was, it was perfect.

15:37Maceo: That’s dope. And so do you still work with any of these artists? Keep up with these artists? A lot of them. Yeah, Smokey Margell.

15:41ProdbyGekko: Well, uh, When Smokey’s -- when he’s out of jail. Yeah, I work with him.

15:45Maceo: He’s in jail right now.

15:46ProdbyGekko: Yeah, he is in jail. Yeah. Yeah. Like when he’s out, like I do cook up with him a lot. I’m still cool with like a bunch of his friends, like Drew Drippy, O’Neal, like his manager Fifth. Like I still talk to a lot of them. Drew Drippy like books me a lot. He’s like, he’s an artist too.

16:02Maceo: No

16:02ProdbyGekko: word.

16:04Maceo: That’s dope. Yeah.

16:05ProdbyGekko: Like I keep -- and also Yaya, who was like his bodyguard, is like boys with a lot of my other boys somehow. Like I just found that out. So like I still like keep in contact with them a lot. I haven’t worked with Asian Doll since, or Booba. Um, and since I’ve been at Off, I’ve worked with like 917 Racks. I’ve done like --

16:24Maceo: He has some cool stuff.

16:24ProdbyGekko: Yeah, I’ve done like 26AR stuff, but I was doing that at the crib as well.

16:28Maceo: Tough. Early 26AR.

16:31ProdbyGekko: Yeah, yeah, low-key. Yeah,

16:32Maceo: yeah, that’s how it --

16:33ProdbyGekko: nothing dropped. I have one really fire song with him that’s unreleased.

16:37Maceo: It’s

16:37ProdbyGekko: like 4 minutes of straight bars, but I don’t think it’s ever dropping.

16:40Maceo: I would like to hear that at some point.

16:42ProdbyGekko: Bro, it’s a fire fucking song. I made the beat with Luca Beast. That shit is fire as fuck.

16:47Maceo: Made

16:48ProdbyGekko: it with Luca Beast and Sham.

16:49Maceo: Shout out to them. Yeah, I was gonna say, like, I remember when I first heard Smokey Margiela, I think the first song I ever heard was like Bahamas when he was on like the ASAP tape. And I was like, damn, this guy’s like 15, 16, 13. I said, I could be a rapper if he’s doing like this. This is crazy. So I think that’s super dope you worked with him because I think he was definitely like a proof of concept for me for like young artists.

17:08ProdbyGekko: Yeah, for real. I mean, I’m a big -- I was a big Smokey fan before I started working with him. Definitely someone who I learned a lot from. Like, through him I kind of learned like how to move quickly. Before him, I was like kind of a slowpoke on Pro Tools and everyone was like kind of okay with that, you know what I mean? They’re like, whatever, like we’re not that good either. So it’s like -- Mm-hmm. But then like once I started working with him, he was like, move faster, move faster, move faster. Don’t play me back so far. Like, play me back one line. Like, I want to move quick. And like in between he’d do like 4 lines bar for bar, and then he’d like do his ins and outs and ad-libs for those bars. And I’d have to like move it down to like my ad-lib box and like my ad-lib effects and like have to move around a lot quicker. So like working with him, it taught me that. Also working with Asian Doll, she wants to move quick. Mm-hmm. So like when I did that, when I ran -- I have a song with Asian Doll, Smokey, and Booba Savage on it, and it’s a fucking fire song that I don’t think it’s ever going to drop, sadly.

18:05Maceo: Damn.

18:06ProdbyGekko: Yeah, I’ve been waiting for that shit to drop since like 2019. I don’t think it’s ever dropping. But, uh,

18:11Maceo: that’s a shame. We got to get them out there. That’s dope. And so how did you end up here at Off Records? Like, how’d you go from like --

18:17ProdbyGekko: So I used to -- so one of my best friends, Sham, like, yeah, I actually went to high school with him at Dwight before I moved overseas. He, uh, he was Dwight. Yeah, yeah, he was 2 years older than me, and we weren’t -- we didn’t really know each other, honestly. But we met maybe in like 2018, 2019, probably 2018, like late 2018. He would like -- one of his friends who’s a producer, I think, brought him over to my studio to cook up because at the time I was looking for producers to like collab with. Mm-hmm. So he came over and then we started talking like, and then he’s like, where’d you go to high school? I’m like, I went to Dwight. He’s like, I went to Dwight. So, so we just like kind of bonded over Dwight stuff and then He starts like having this lockout deal with Alow. Alow like owns Off Record, and they used to have a location on Crosby Street.

19:07Maceo: What’s a lockout deal?

19:08ProdbyGekko: Like, he’d pay X amount a month and he’d get like 2 overnight slots in the B-room, and he’d go there and just make beats, and sometimes he’d bring artists to like record there. So he had like this lockout deal, and then Off Record used to be like -- it used to have like 2 rooms and then a 3rd room that they sublet to someone else. who also joined us at this studio subletting and then left.

19:31Maceo: Who was that?

19:33ProdbyGekko: Uh, it’s like a group of kids. I, I, I honestly like always forget their names. They’re nice dudes though, but, uh, they, they couldn’t -- they couldn’t afford the space anymore and they ended up owing a lot of money that they couldn’t pay. So I, I just left. And

19:47Maceo: then were they producers as well though?

19:48ProdbyGekko: Producers, rappers, engineers. I don’t think they, they, they weren’t really so serious about it, you know. They -- it was It was 4 of them splitting X amount, and then they were like, you know, there wasn’t much on the line. They all had other jobs. I

20:02Maceo: got that. You like their music?

20:04ProdbyGekko: Uh, no, probably not. I mean, I’ve never heard it. Maybe I’ve heard one thing. It’s like, it’s like fine, it’s like whatever, you know.

20:10Maceo: I’m always curious. I like the music.

20:11ProdbyGekko: Yeah, so, so Sham was booking a lot there, and then they used to have these 3 rooms, and then on the other side of the office was Alau’s dad’s office. So there’s like desks and like, like, or like a full -- it’s like half office, half recording studio. No, no, no. His dad works in like, in like movies and commercials and like, like, uh, visual stuff. Like, I see.

20:33Maceo: That’s dope.

20:34ProdbyGekko: His dad’s an awesome guy. I really like his dad. Uh, but so, so, and I guess their lease ended and Alau was like, I want to find a 3 or 4 room space. somewhere in Manhattan. It can be in SoHo, it can be in Midtown, just not, not too uptown, but somewhere that’s accessible, you know. Yeah. So he ends up finding a few spaces and he talks to Sham. He’s like, all these spaces I’m finding are like really good price per square foot, like fair for what I want to pay, but like I need, like I want to sublet 2 rooms instead of 1. I want to have it be a 4-room studio. And Sham was like, I don’t really have the budget. I’m not gonna -- I don’t really wanna spend multiple thousand dollars a month on a studio. I wanna spend, you know, I don’t know, like $800 to $1,000 a month. But I have someone who runs a really successful home studio that you should meet, and I could like own a room with him. So then that’s how I got brought in on being in this spot.

21:36Maceo: That’s dope. And so how did you and Sham get reconnected? Like you said, you guys didn’t know each other in high school.

21:40ProdbyGekko: I actually have no idea who brought him over. But like, it was either another producer or maybe it was his manager. Like, I’m not sure who brought him over.

21:47Maceo: That makes sense. And so how long you actually been here in this space then?

21:50ProdbyGekko: I’ve been here since June of 2021, I believe.

21:55Maceo: Okay, so that’s like, what’s almost 2 years upcoming then?

21:58ProdbyGekko: Yeah, 2 years upcoming, and I have another year here. I might, uh, I’m deciding what the next steps are.

22:04Maceo: That makes sense. And what are you contemplating to look at, like, next steps for yourself?

22:07ProdbyGekko: You know, I’m thinking, you know, maybe I could find a 2-room space and kind of like build my own brand a little bit more with the studio. That’s -- it’s like a possibility. I could also stay here.

22:21Maceo: Yeah, yeah, you have a lot of options. I think you’re super talented, bro, so I think being open-minded, I think, is important.

22:27ProdbyGekko: Yeah, I did. Yeah, all for me, it’s like I just want to keep my options kind of open.

22:32Maceo: Yeah.

22:33ProdbyGekko: And see what’s possible because I I did spend a lot of money building this studio, so it’s like -- and a lot, it’s a lot. It was a big project. I mean, I built this room from like the ground up. Like every little detail in here is like an arm and a leg in cost and effort and in time, you know. We spent 2, 3 months like all day every day being here and like hiring electricians, handymen, like --

22:57Maceo: Yeah.

22:57ProdbyGekko: Buying fucking $2,500 windows for the booth and like Yeah, so it was a big project.

23:05Maceo: Just kind of your baby. You have like a relationship with this space.

23:08ProdbyGekko: Yeah, it is my baby. And I also learned a lot about building studios through building this one. So I feel like if I were to build another one, all the mistakes I made with this one, I wouldn’t make with that one. I’d know exactly like what kinks need to be figured out.

23:20Maceo: And when you like, what kind of mistakes? I come in here, I’m like impeccable. I have no sense.

23:26ProdbyGekko: So if I were to I’d like to have climate control of my own room. I think one of the issues with our studio, and there’s not very many, but I think one of the big issues is that there’s not proper climate control. Like, it’s like one thermostat for the entire studio, for all 4 rooms. And, but all of our rooms have different conditions. Like, the big A room has these big windows that open.

23:52Maceo: Yeah.

23:53ProdbyGekko: And my room has no windows. It’s like completely insulated.

23:56Maceo: I get that.

23:57ProdbyGekko: So in the winter, their room gets really cold, so they put the heat on and then my room gets incredibly hot.

24:03Maceo: That makes sense.

24:04ProdbyGekko: And then vice versa, like in the summer now, like it’s cold in my room and they’re probably baking

24:09Maceo: up there

24:10ProdbyGekko: in the other rooms. So that

24:11Maceo: makes sense.

24:12ProdbyGekko: That’s like one thing I’d want to have fixed. I also want to do double doors on my booth. That’s like -- those are probably the 2 main things. Like I’d like to do double doors and then proper climate control. Other than that, it’s like a great studio.

24:26Maceo: Yeah, I honestly never really thought about like the AC like you just talked about. I was in a fraternity in college and I lived in a fraternity house for a year and like everybody, like we’re all in the same like AC for the whole floor, but there’s like 9 bedrooms and they’re all shaped different ways with different like vents. It’s all this like one long vent that goes in a circle around the floor. And I thought that shit didn’t make any sense because like it’s hot as fuck in my room, it’s cold over there, and this guy has his windows open trying to compensate and now I have more heat in my room and I’m like, what’s even going on?

24:50ProdbyGekko: So yeah, yeah, I mean in the end it’s all about they want to keep their costs down. It’s a lot easier to build a a studio with, with one thermostat for the whole thing than to have individual climate control. I think we got a quote and it was like an extra $15,000 for each room to have their own.

25:04Maceo: I mean, I just never knew. Like, I never thought about how that problem would be resolved in my fraternity house, but now I’m thinking really critically about how I didn’t appreciate it.

25:11ProdbyGekko: Yeah.

25:12Maceo: Hearing you talk about that.

25:13ProdbyGekko: And one thing I learned about building a studio is like every little thing is so expensive. Like the littlest thing you can even imagine is like Like, $1,000 bills get tacked on like it’s like breakfast, you know, like it’s just automatic. That’s like little shit, you know. And then the big things will be like $10,000 projects, you know.

25:31Maceo: Yeah, equipment costs money for

25:34ProdbyGekko: equipment, but also the build-outs themselves are like -- it’s an insane project. But I will say I’m very happy I own my own studio. I’d much rather own my own studio than to like work at a major. Even though once in a while it is nice when I get invited to go to work at major studios and like get that vibe. And then it’s like I go back to my studio, I’m like, I know what I want my studio to be one day, you know?

25:58Maceo: I get that. What major studios have you gone and worked in? Like, you started out in Quad as a major studio, no? Is that like what you mean? Or is that --

26:05ProdbyGekko: Oh yeah, yeah, like studios like Quad. Like recently I’ve been going to Acosta Park a little bit, uh, with, with this artist 4 or 5 that I work with who probably like One of my personal favorite up-and-coming artists. I’ve been working with him for maybe like 3 or 4 years now.

26:17Maceo: Oh yeah?

26:18ProdbyGekko: Yeah, yeah. I’ve seen him like completely rebrand and develop and everything. So he’s a, he’s a great guy, very talented, knows his craft, knows how to market. He has a brand called New York City Gun Club that’s kind of blowing up too. They -- he’s just a great networker. He knows a lot of people. He makes good music. You know, it’s gonna happen. It’s just now it’s just about putting that time in.

26:39Maceo: That makes sense. And like, what -- how have you seen his brand evolve? But you said 4 to 5 years is a long time you’re working with anybody.

26:45ProdbyGekko: Yeah, I mean, when I first met him, I think he had like maybe 3 or 4,000 followers. Like, that was the first big difference. Now he has 15,000 followers. But, uh, I mean, his -- he didn’t know his sound. He didn’t know -- he wasn’t incredibly good at recording. Like, was just learning, you know. You just like in those early stages of of being an artist.

27:07Maceo: That makes sense. That’s dope. And he’s not like -- he’s not like -- how would you describe his sound now?

27:13ProdbyGekko: It’s like it has like digital vibes, so it’s kind of like there’s like a bit of a Yeat feeling, but there’s also like -- it’s also its own thing. Like his sound is definitely a lot darker. It’s like I don’t know, it’s just, it’s just, it’s, it’s in its own thing, you know? But it also kind of fits in a certain box where like he can collaborate with like Midwest and with like Tana and people like that, you know? So it’s like, it’s definitely on that like digital underground Auto-Tune sound, but also with like a little bit of like Atlanta and Future in it. It’s like, it’s kind of a mix of things, which is why I really believe in him. because his sound is not a carbon copy of someone else’s sound. It’s kind of like a bunch of people’s sounds put together.

28:05Maceo: It’s like a fusion.

28:06ProdbyGekko: And then his own uniqueness.

28:08Maceo: That’s pretty fire. And how’d you guys first get connected, the two of you?

28:11ProdbyGekko: Uh, we got connected through Sham, I’m pretty sure. Yeah, yeah, I think that’s how we met. And Sham’s like his main producer engineer, so he --

28:20Maceo: That’s dope.

28:22ProdbyGekko: Yeah, yeah, so he like constantly engineers him and like is making all his beats. And every beat that he gets on, almost every one is a collaboration with him and someone else.

28:35Maceo: With Sham and someone else?

28:37ProdbyGekko: Yeah, yeah. So like recently they’ve been doing a lot of shit with like Internet Money and with like Hologram and like Synthetic, Purdue, Radiate, like those producers. So yeah, yeah. So they’ve been going crazy.

28:47Maceo: That’s dope. I’m sure that feels really good for 4 or 5 getting recommendations from Internet Money. I feel like Internet Money is a huge producer collective.

28:52ProdbyGekko: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, and he’s going out to LA and like cooking up in the Internet Money house. House. Yeah,

28:58Maceo: that’s

28:58ProdbyGekko: hella tight. Yeah, so that’s a dream. It’s a long time coming.

29:01Maceo: Yeah, it’s a dream for a fact. That’s super dope. And I guess like talking a little bit more, like I got found out about you like through the drill stuff. Like, uh, how did you find yourself in like the drill sound? Like, I guess was that just like being --

29:11ProdbyGekko: I mean, I just started like linking up. Like, so I used to -- and I, I still sometimes engineer them -- I used to engineer these YGs from Brooklyn uh, Quali Talibans, uh, Trizzy, who sadly passed away a few years ago, and, uh, a couple others. And I used to be like their main engineer. They used to come to my home studio.

29:32Maceo: Mm-hmm.

29:32ProdbyGekko: And Luca Beats used to send them beats when Luca had -- was like 15 years old or 14 years old and had like 300 followers, you know. So I think he started sending over like some Mexico drill type beats, you know what I mean, like on like that, like on that vibe, not even drill. And they were just getting on them and I’m like, these are kind of fire. So he starts sending me -- this is right when loop making started. People might have been sending loops in the industry, but this is when I first started using other people’s loops.

30:05Maceo: Mm-hmm.

30:06ProdbyGekko: Luca started sending me these Mexico Drow sounding loops and I started doing drums and then Kweli and these artists would get on them. And then one day they had Luca come over I think Luca had just had like one of his first drill placements. I don’t know who it was with, but he started like -- he signed with this group called -- fuck. All right, whatever. He signed with this producer group. He was like maybe 15. Mm-hmm. Started getting like -- maybe got like 2,000 or 3,000 followers, started coming up, started getting some placements. And he knew a lot of the people I knew and we were talking, so I was like, yo, come over to my place, like let’s cook up some beats. And then he came over, he’s like, oh, this is a fire setup. Like, we could definitely have some like artists pull up. So we started having like 26AR, like a few other smaller drill artists like that he knew would like just come over, record,

30:57Maceo: you

30:57ProdbyGekko: know, whatever, make some, some shit. So that’s kind of how I met Luca.

31:01Maceo: That makes sense.

31:02ProdbyGekko: Through an odd group of friends that I wouldn’t have expected it from.

31:07Maceo: Yeah.

31:07ProdbyGekko: And now he’s like -- Luca’s like one of the biggest producers in the city.

31:09Maceo: That’s crazy. So

31:10ProdbyGekko: he’s doing his thing.

31:10Maceo: That’s dope. And what -- so can you explain what loops are?

31:14ProdbyGekko: Loops are like -- so within any beat there is a melody and then there’s drums. The loop is like the melody. So what a lot of people do, including me, I’ve started making loops recently just to like catch a couple placements, is like you just make the melody, uh, and then you don’t -- you don’t do the drums, and then you send the melodies out to other producers And like either directly to them or like in loop packs and weeklies. You can have a lot of different names. Like on my loop list, I probably have like 50 or 60 different producers. I just send out like a Dropbox with, with say like, I don’t know, maybe 8 to 10 loops a week. Mm-hmm. And then people make their beats. They either send them back or they, they let me know that they use them. And then they like -- and multiple people can use them. And then it’s like if they go and get a placement with them, then it’s like then we -- it’s like we’ve made the beat together, you know?

32:06Maceo: That makes sense. So you kind of credit his collaboration on the track.

32:09ProdbyGekko: And also, like, I think it’s a really awesome thing because it’s like, to make a beat from scratch takes a long, long time. Like, the way I like to make beats is I like to work pretty quickly and I like to make a fairly good volume of beats. Like, if I’m going in to make beats, I want to make at least 6, 7 beats, you know? I don’t want to go in and spend 6 hours making 4 beats, you know? That’s just like not productive for me.

32:33Maceo: That makes sense.

32:34ProdbyGekko: So like it, it just, it speeds up the process and it also like opens doors for a lot of -- I’ve seen loop makers that found me and they had 100 followers and then they were like, can I send you loops? And then now I’m seeing them like a year and a half, 2 years later and they’re like having 3,000, 4,000 followers and are getting catching placements off of their loops. So it’s a really good way to like to like build yourself. So that’s what I’ve been doing a lot of recently is just making loops, sending out loops, trying to catch like placements off of those.

33:05Maceo: And do you work with any producers that aren’t domestic, like outside the US?

33:08ProdbyGekko: That are outside the US? Yeah, yeah, there’s a bunch of loop makers outside the US that I fuck with. This one dude Gabriel Jin is really fire.

33:14Maceo: Where’s he based?

33:15ProdbyGekko: I believe in Australia. He’s fire. He does a lot of like guitar stuff. He like records himself playing guitar. I have a bunch of Shaw Guala placements that I got for him.

33:23Maceo: Oh yeah,

33:24ProdbyGekko: yeah,

33:24Maceo: yeah. Who’s Shaquille?

33:25ProdbyGekko: Shaquille is a drill artist from the city. He’s like a melodic drill artist. He, he was signed under Smoovell, under Run Music.

33:32Maceo: We met at New Apollo.

33:34ProdbyGekko: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Smoovell’s tough. But yeah, Shaquille had a bunch of like pretty big New York hits, like 2 mil plus on YouTube. Like,

33:43Maceo: uh, that’s numbers for a fact.

33:44ProdbyGekko: Yeah, no, no, he was definitely doing numbers, and people in the city definitely like know who he is. I mean, he’s Recently hasn’t been doing those numbers because his label kind of has been fucking him over and put him in a bad situation. But,

33:55Maceo: uh, who’s he signed to?

33:56ProdbyGekko: He signed to Run Music. That -- I mean, it’s really important that when you sign a deal, it can’t just be to anyone, you know? Because then it gets to a point where they’re failing and they’re gonna take their anger out on you. Like, you want to sign -- you know, it doesn’t have to be a major, but you want to sign to like legit entities with legitimate people. So he signed basically to Smooth L under some some, respectfully, some people that didn’t know what they were doing. And then Smooth L got his deal with Interscope. So he’s like situated, but then like everyone under Round Music is kind of in a situation. Yeah, is it? Yeah, yeah, it’s not, it’s not a great place.

34:30Maceo: That makes sense. And like, do you work with any, like, like I know you say you like UK drill, that’s what you told me before. Are there any producers out there that you like a lot?

34:39ProdbyGekko: I mean, they’re, they’re, they’re great producers out there. I just Like Ghost T is a really good producer. I just don’t know any of them, but they’re, they’re all awesome. 808 Mello is a beast. Like, it’s just in, you know, they, they created it. They created the genre. Yeah, give them their -- give them their flowers.

34:55Maceo: Facts, have to. I didn’t even know that. Like, I think that’s super dope.

34:57ProdbyGekko: I mean, UK drill was definitely like that, that like triplet. That’s just from the UK drill. That’s not American.

35:03Maceo: Oh yeah?

35:04ProdbyGekko: That’s not -- yeah, I mean, I guess in Chicago there are a couple songs that are like from Chicago drill that kind of use those triplets, but like Yeah, to me that’s really a UK trend that started and then caught on with like Pop Smoke.

35:15Maceo: I didn’t know that. I really had no idea.

35:17ProdbyGekko: Because if you think about it, like before Pop Smoke, the drill in the city was like 22Gz and like that, that sound. And they were not using beats that sound like that. They were using more like trappy beats.

35:29Maceo: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

35:31ProdbyGekko: Well, it wasn’t, it wasn’t like, at least beat-wise, like they weren’t using counter snares yet. They were using just hi-hats.

35:37Maceo: And so the counter snare is the --

35:39ProdbyGekko: It’s like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That’s the -- because yeah, yeah, that’s what a counter snare is.

35:45Maceo: Oh yeah, I’m learning. You’re teaching me. I appreciate that. That’s pretty dope. You see yourself taking a trip out there to get more tapped in with that scene?

35:51ProdbyGekko: I mean, I’d go if the moment was right and it was like to link with a certain -- like, I wouldn’t just go out there and like walk around London. I’d probably get robbed, you know what I mean?

36:00Maceo: Yeah, yeah. I mean, yeah.

36:01ProdbyGekko: It would have to be like pretty situated, you know? I don’t like -- I’m not the type where I’m like, I can’t just travel somewhere if it’s not situated. Like, when I travel for music, it’s mainly to LA because it’s like when I go to LA, I know that like I have specific things planned, specific people that I’m linking, and like I’m going to the studio with them, then I’m, you know, I’m going to a club with them, going to dinner with them, you know what I mean? So it’s like, I like to be like a little strategic with my trips, but I definitely do want to go out to the UK one day.

36:30Maceo: That makes sense. Are you in touch with any producers out there?

36:32ProdbyGekko: Honestly, I don’t think so.

36:36Maceo: That makes sense. And what do you think about the New York drill scene then? I feel like being in New York, you have a pretty good view of the culture. You work with artists for more than 4 or 5 years. I feel like most people haven’t known what drill is for 4 or 5 years, at least not outside New York.

36:52ProdbyGekko: I mean, the scene is definitely very saturated right now. There’s a lot of artists. There’s a lot of really good artists, a lot of really great producers. Uh, the beats are fire.

37:04Maceo: Yeah, without a question.

37:05ProdbyGekko: The beats are, are sick. The sample drill is fire.

37:08Maceo: Who are the producers you think are driving sample drill right now?

37:11ProdbyGekko: Uh, probably I’d say like Alau, Eli, uh, Chris Saves, Cash Cobain.

37:22Maceo: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

37:24ProdbyGekko: Um, ZT on the beat, who’s a friend of mine. I cook up with him a lot.

37:28Maceo: He’s like

37:29ProdbyGekko: Shawny’s

37:29Maceo: producer.

37:31ProdbyGekko: Yeah, ZT, Chubby El Jefe, um, who else?

37:38Maceo: Yeah, I like, I like, I like, uh, Set the Trendy as a song with, uh, with Eli. I know, like, I listen to a lot of Fabio Foreign. I listen to OD Fabio Foreign.

37:45ProdbyGekko: Yeah.

37:45Maceo: And I know Eli was on that project last year.

37:47ProdbyGekko: I like Hustler Music.

37:48Maceo: He flipped the, like, the Lil Wayne sample for Jay Critch. It’s a phenomenal song in my opinion as well. I like Shawny Bin Laden, like Cash Cobain. I agree with you. I think those are phenomenal producers.

37:57ProdbyGekko: Yeah, yeah. Also, like, even though it’s like kind of like overplayed stuff, like Elias Beats is fire, like Kosfinger’s fire, like all those YouTube guys are killing it.

38:07Maceo: Elvis.

38:07ProdbyGekko: Elvis. Yeah, yeah. All these dudes are fire. Like, they are fire producers. I think that moment of them -- I think that moment of like the overly poppy samples is starting to move away. I think it needs to because I think people are starting to run out of ideas.

38:21Maceo: That’s fair. What about like Central Cee though? He’s got like the let, let, like the, like, he got the Passenger sample now. I feel like that --

38:27ProdbyGekko: He did that really well though. He was very creative with that. It wasn’t just like loop the chorus or like loop the chords and then like talk about something that has nothing to do with the concept of the sample.

38:38Maceo: That’s fair. No, he’s -- I would say he’s a conceptual rapper for sure.

38:41ProdbyGekko: I actually have one placement with BELOVE that dropped. I think it’s just a YouTube song called Good Night, and we sampled, uh, This, this -- what’s that song by the Black Eyed Peas? Tonight, give me a good night. Yeah, we sampled that shit. And because the sample was like such a big sample, I think that it was too expensive for their budget. They could only drop it on YouTube, which was annoying because we ended up like not getting paid for it. Like we were expecting, you know, maybe like $1,000 or $2,000 for the record. We got nothing. And also like the crediting wasn’t done properly. So like That’s another issue with like the sample drill stuff, especially if you’re working with -- if you’re independent artists, it’s not as big of a deal. But if you’re with a label, they’re not going to drop something unless it’s properly cleared.

39:27Maceo: That makes sense. And so like, uh, B-Love, he’s a huge placement, I’d say, like New York drill, at least in my opinion. Like him and like -- I listened to Kay Flock. Kay Flock was a big part of how I got into drill, definitely. Like Being Honest, like Show Beats. Like I would say like I was listening to Show Beats even before I heard Kay Flock, and I was like, oh, this is like a huge placement for him. And he had like the -- he had like another like drill beat that was just like nobody, not even anyone rapping over it. That was really popular on like TikTok for a while. So, um, but Dougie B and, and B-Love and Kay Flock, they’re like a group. They were all doing stuff together for a while. And so I think that’s, that’s a dope placement. I think they definitely put me on to sample drill more so.

40:02ProdbyGekko: Yeah, they were definitely like some of the big guys that like made sample drill like a popular thing.

40:07Maceo: And what do you think about like, who do you think is like elevating it? You feel like there are people who are like breaking out of the mold of like a more repetitive, like, newer drill sound and kind of differentiating themselves?

40:15ProdbyGekko: I don’t know. Right now, to me, a lot of people kind of sound the same, to be honest. Like, uh, especially a lot of -- I think like Shawnee Boney and like, like, however you say her name.

40:27Maceo: Shawnee Boney.

40:27ProdbyGekko: Yeah, whatever. I don’t, I don’t listen to that. I barely listen to drill, but I think a lot of, a lot of guys sound like fucking Batman. Like, like Gremlins. Like, you know, that shit, that shit gets played out. And then like I think the female drill rappers are killing it right now. I

40:42Maceo: think that’s a solid take. That’s a solid take. When you -- I guess

40:47ProdbyGekko: I think that’s probably like the big thing like right now is like the female drill rappers are like, I think, are way outshining the male drill rappers.

40:55Maceo: Yeah, like who?

40:55ProdbyGekko: I mean, Ice Spice. I mean, she’s fucking killing

40:58Maceo: it.

40:59ProdbyGekko: Yeah, there’s nothing you can say. She’s fucking killing it.

41:03Maceo: Yeah, that’s absolutely true. That’s absolutely true. I like her song with Lil Tjay. That’s probably my favorite Ice Spice song. I don’t know. Like, I think like it’s like, I feel like she’s kind of like a TikTok rapper. Yeah, yeah. That’s kind of how I would describe her. Like, I feel like as an MC, not thoroughly impressed. I’ll say that very, like, very honestly.

41:20ProdbyGekko: I think, but like, if you’re -- I don’t think any of these drill rappers really impressed me like lyrically.

41:25Maceo: That’s very funny.

41:25ProdbyGekko: Other than like Central Cee and like Digga D. Like the UK guys like actually are impressive. Like, I don’t see like any of these like New York drill artists to be like, especially great lyrically.

41:36Maceo: That’s -- what do you think of Fabio Foreign?

41:37ProdbyGekko: You know, he makes good songs. You know, he’s a good songwriter,

41:41Maceo: and

41:41ProdbyGekko: he has his moments where he does sound lyrical. He’s definitely talented. He knows how to make a song that, that catches on. You know, that there’s a skill to that. It’s not just about being lyrical. And like, even though at moments he is lyrical, I wouldn’t say he’s like my favorite artist. Like, I don’t bump a ton of Fabio, but like, there are --

41:59Maceo: I listen to an absurd amount of Fabio Foreign.

42:00ProdbyGekko: Really?

42:01Maceo: Okay. Absurd.

42:02ProdbyGekko: No, I like, I like Fabio a lot though.

42:04Maceo: People disrespect me because I too much Fabio Foreign. You listen to Fabio Foreign? I showed my great aunt like his song Sick and Tired on Easter and she’s like, oh, he’s not a bad rapper. I was playing my grandma like Didi Osama. I’m trying to make my, my, my, like, my family listen to drill rap. I think they’re --

42:18ProdbyGekko: I tried to put my, like, because I have a lot of family in Egypt because I, I, my mom’s side of the family is Norwegian, but her mom moved to Egypt in her 40s and married like into a big Egyptian family. And so half my family is like over there is Egyptian. I was playing like, uh, my Egyptian uncle like a lot of Pop Smoke, and they were like, what the fuck is this garbage? And they go back to playing some actual garbage.

42:41Maceo: Some actual garbage. Bro, you’re funny. You’re funny. And so you feel like lyricism is kind of a big thing that’s missing? You feel like we don’t really have like a lot of like -- I won’t say high-functioning songwriters, but really like super impressive, well-developed like songwriters in the drill space?

42:57ProdbyGekko: Yeah, but I don’t think that’s like the purpose of drill music. It’s just a vibe, you know? I just, I hope that we can get some new lingo, you know what I mean? Like, I hear a lot of gah gah boom and like a lot of smoking on ops and, you know what I mean? It’s like a lot of the same --

43:14Maceo: Same words being used as placeholders for having the right words.

43:17ProdbyGekko: So I think someone needs to -- it doesn’t take someone to be a lyrical genius to come up with some new lingo, you know what I mean?

43:24Maceo: We’re not really getting a lot of authentic content.

43:27ProdbyGekko: We’re not really getting people showing up as themselves. Yeah, exactly. Exactly.

43:28Maceo: That makes a lot of sense. I think that makes a lot -- I think that’s a great point, honestly. Um, is it -- so, okay, I get that. I guess next I’m curious to see about how you see the role of producers in hip-hop changing.

43:40ProdbyGekko: Yeah, I mean, producers now more than ever be just like -- they can be an engineer who’s producing, they can be like a songwriter, you know, vocal producing. Uh, you can be just a beat maker and be a producer. You can just make melodies. and be a very successful producer. Uh, you can also do absolutely nothing and just tell people what to do and be a great producer, like DJ Khaled. You know, he’s an amazing producer. Doesn’t -- I don’t think he knows how to make a beat. Like, I don’t know, I don’t think he knows any software.

44:09Maceo: You know, you don’t think -- Really? I didn’t know that.

44:11ProdbyGekko: No, no, I think he just tells people what to do, but he’s really good at telling people to do -- look, look at, uh, Rick Rubin. He’s, he’s not a -- he’s not on Pro Tools engineering.

44:20Maceo: That’s fair. But

44:21ProdbyGekko: yeah, he made up -- he’s like going viral because he’s like, he’s like, he has no technical skill like that, but his, his opinion has proved -- what’d he say? He said his, he said his opinion has proven very valuable for a lot of big artists and a lot of big songs. And that’s a -- that, that means a lot too.

44:38Maceo: No, for sure. You

44:39ProdbyGekko: can know all the technical stuff, but sometimes it takes that voice to be like, make the vocal bigger. You know what I mean? And then suddenly you’re -- now the record is a record, you know?

44:49Maceo: That makes a lot of sense.

44:50ProdbyGekko: So yeah, there’s a lot of different roles for producers. Also, like, with these producer groups, like, uh, look at Internet Money with Rich and Miri. Like, they’re, they’re literally creating --

45:00Maceo: who’s Rich and Miri?

45:01ProdbyGekko: He’s like this new artist with, with Internet Money who’s like kind of been blowing up. Like, they’re, they’re completely creating his career. Look at like Juice WRLD. Like, without Internet Money and Nick Mira, like --

45:11Maceo: and Lil Tekka too, absolutely.

45:12ProdbyGekko: Yeah, yeah. Who -- yeah, I mean, I think Tekka might have been big anyway.

45:15Maceo: You think so?

45:15ProdbyGekko: Yeah, because he was kind of tapped in with a lot of people in the city anyway, and he was making hits, you know. And who knows, maybe Juice WRLD would have been huge without Nicki Minaj and without internet money. But these --

45:25Maceo: Like his breakout record, Lucid Dreams, like Nicki Minaj.

45:27ProdbyGekko: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So like, and also they did a lot of like, they promoted that shit. They put a bag into like, and they used their connections to make that song go up, get on the right playlist, get in the right social media marketing schemes, you know. So yeah, I mean, I mean, the leverage of the producer has never been more important And it’s never been higher, you know.

45:48Maceo: And do you feel like you guys get enough recognition or like you guys have enough power in the space then? Do you feel like, like you actually get like the -- do you guys feel like you are able to leverage this leverage and like --

45:57ProdbyGekko: Uh, it, you know, it depends on the situation.

46:00Maceo: Like

46:00ProdbyGekko: personally, I’ve kind of stopped working on like a lot of drill stuff because it’s like, it’s just, it’s just not, it’s not really what I want my music to be. Like I’ll do it, I’ll make some of it, and like if it happens, it happens. But I’m putting more of my energy like into work, especially with, for like this artist I work with, 4 or 5. Like, I really want to put most of my energy into either like making money in my studio and maintaining, or like making loops for other producers, or into 4 or 5. Because it’s like, I’ve been in a lot of positions where, you know, I didn’t have the right leverage as a producer to like get what I needed out of a situation. So I kind of, after like kind of throwing a lot of stuff at the wall and seeing what sticks. I think I’m just going to, to not try to get all these drill placements. Like, I got a Siggy Black placement, didn’t get cut in on the royalties or paid,

46:49Maceo: which is crazy. That song is super tough.

46:50ProdbyGekko: Yeah, that’s -- it’s an awesome song. Also, it wasn’t properly credited, so it’s like --

46:57Maceo: so he was --

46:58ProdbyGekko: there’s not a lot of professionalism within the drill stuff unless you’re working with like artists who just got signed, you know.

47:05Maceo: That makes a lot of sense.

47:06ProdbyGekko: So, and yeah, and I, I just don’t -- I don’t, I don’t really relate to a lot of drill artists. Like, it’s, it’s not, it’s not where I’m put. Like, it’s not where I want to put my energy.

47:14Maceo: That makes sense. That makes sense. And like, so what do you think about like commercial hip-hop more broadly, even looking outside drill? Like, uh, do you have a take on like the industry around like hip-hop?

47:23ProdbyGekko: I mean, I mean, music’s good right now, you know? Like, uh, and there’s always, there’s always going to be lots of great music. there’s like the mainstream hip-hop sound of like kind of like Atlanta-based stuff, which is awesome. And like drill also has its place within the mainstream. I think it’s like, I think there’s gonna be more like merging of the 2 subgenres.

47:44Maceo: I think so. I think as people like experiment more and like, you know, I think you’re saying like the fact that 45 is infusing kind of all the things that he likes, I think as more artists take the willingness to do that. I think even like when you look at like melodic drill, like at one point that was brand new. People weren’t doing that.

48:01ProdbyGekko: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

48:02Maceo: Mhm. So I absolutely agree with that. Like, uh, outside 4 or 5, are there any other up-and-coming artists or producers like you feel like aren’t getting enough recognition right now?

48:11ProdbyGekko: My boy Shockwala deserves a lot more recognition. He was a super talented artist.

48:15Maceo: Oh yeah.

48:15ProdbyGekko: And the issue is like his music, his music used to just sound a lot better because he was -- he had a budget behind him, and now he’s like in his crib recording himself and people are like, oh, he fell off. Well, the reason he fell off is because he’s not a fucking engineer, you know? So, and he’s not getting pushed the same way. He’s not, you know, like when artists are getting millions of plays quickly, like that’s -- there’s organic and there’s also not organic involved in that. And it’s like you need that push to get to that level. Otherwise, like it’s not just gonna happen by accident, you know?

48:46Maceo: That makes sense. So do you feel like incentivized to kind of like scout artists then as like, you’re a good engineer and producer, like do you feel kind of incentive? Like, you book sessions, like, to follow up with people?

48:54ProdbyGekko: It depends on, like --

48:56Maceo: Or pursue certain kinds of artists to be in your sessions?

48:58ProdbyGekko: Yeah, yeah, for sure. You know, it’s def -- I definitely try to, like, pursue certain artists, but I also kind of let it come to me in a way, you know? So I’m not really in, like, the game that, like, producing is, is like, I’m 24, I’m not in the mindset of, oh, I need to be famous now.

49:16Maceo: Yeah,

49:16ProdbyGekko: for me it’s like I want to build laterally and like create something that’s going to last a little longer.

49:22Maceo: A foundation.

49:23ProdbyGekko: Yeah, yeah, exactly.

49:24Maceo: That makes sense.

49:25ProdbyGekko: So yeah, yeah, I mean, sure, I want to go out and get placements and make big songs, but I also want to do it in a way that, that I can feel comfortable with it and feel proud of it and really like be able to work the way that I want to work as opposed to like inviting like an entire gang into the studio.

49:43Maceo: I get that. You know what I mean? Yeah, it’s a different environment. Absolutely. I respect that, dude. I was just curious. I feel like, like as I’m getting more into like the Web3 NFT space, I feel like my role really is to be like a curator, finding artists that I like, finding people that I want to work with. Like if I like somebody’s music, it’s really easy to like, to like say, I like this person’s music. I like their music. Like I don’t really want to spend my time talking about them. I don’t mind talking to them. I don’t have to do their music. But like I want to say, I want to feel like I’m really aligned with what I’m saying whenever I speak about music stuff. Like I value my own opinion and I don’t want people to feel like my opinion is nonsense. I’m like, this guy’s great, and then like it doesn’t like measure up.

50:20ProdbyGekko: Um, and also like, like for me, it’s like I keep my options open. I send out loops, I put effort towards things, but like I’m not really interested in like DMing drill rappers. It’s just, it’s just not, it’s not my vibe.

50:34Maceo: That makes sense. I mean, I didn’t mean necessarily even drill rappers, you know, like I mean like rappers in general, like musicians that are around the city that you like, your music you like.

50:41ProdbyGekko: If someone finds me and gets put onto me, like that’s organic. Like, if you’re going out and as a producer and messaging certain artists, you have to have like a lot of followers. You have to have a certain platform or else it’s -- you’re just -- it’s not gonna happen. You’re just gonna get ignored.

50:56Maceo: I think it’s like sales, you know, like, like, yeah, like 2 for 10, 1 for 10, 1 for 20. But I feel like the ratio is the ratio. It’s just about putting yourself out there a lot of the time with anything. But yeah, I mean, I appreciate all your perspective on everything so far in this interview, dude. I appreciate it a lot. And then my last question. I live with my grandma. I love my grandma to death. She’s like one of my favorite people in my life. You said your grandma’s an artist. I’m curious to hear a little bit about her, if you don’t mind sharing that.

51:18ProdbyGekko: Yeah, so my grandmother, her name is Britt Boutros-Ghali.

51:21Maceo: Britt Boutros-Ghali?

51:23ProdbyGekko: Yeah, she joined the Boutros-Ghali family in Egypt, which is a big political Coptic Christian family. I don’t know how -- she’s an awesome lady. But so she grew up in Oslo and in the north of Norway. And, you know, right during World War II is when she grew up. Like, she was like 6, 7, 8 years old throughout that period of time. Wow.

51:43Maceo: Yeah.

51:43ProdbyGekko: And she married my grandfather, who had passed away when I was like maybe 2. I didn’t really know

51:53Maceo: him,

51:53ProdbyGekko: who was an American who worked on an Army base as a school principal. So she married him, had my mom’s older sister, then my mom, and then a younger brother. And then they got a divorce when my mom was maybe 13 or something. And then my grandmother met this Egyptian man on a flight over to Paris, like in the terminal, and he was like, come with me to Cairo instead of going to Paris. And she missed a whole show. She was already a pretty successful painter.

52:26Maceo: She’s a painter.

52:27ProdbyGekko: And then she’s just become like an incredibly successful painter. She’s won the art prize of Norway. I forget what it’s called, but the only other person to ever win it was Edvard Munch.

52:37Maceo: Wow.

52:38ProdbyGekko: And it’s given by the King of England, uh, the King of Norway, the Queen of Norway, whoever’s the monarch gives it. So she’s won that, and she also just won an award for like a woman’s achievement award in Egypt. She’s like a hugely successful artist. Oh yeah, she’s awesome. Yeah, yeah,

52:55Maceo: shout out to her. That’s dope. Yeah, you said that. You said she’s an artist. I wanted to ask a little bit more, give people opportunity to learn about her as well.

53:01ProdbyGekko: Yeah, yeah, then she’s still very active. She still sells like, you know, 50 to 100 pieces a year. She does like -- she does her thing.

53:07Maceo: And she lives in Egypt now?

53:08ProdbyGekko: Yeah, she lives in -- she has an apartment in Cairo. She has a house in Luxor, and she has a house in Alexandria.

53:15Maceo: That makes sense. Are you tapped in at all to like the Egyptian music scene?

53:19ProdbyGekko: Not really in the music scene, but I go every couple of years and stay with her and see family.

53:26Maceo: I’m sure she appreciates that a lot.

53:27ProdbyGekko: Yeah, yeah, yeah. We have good fun. We drink wine, you know, have fun.

53:32Maceo: Yeah. Do you want to give people like your social media where they can find you?

53:36ProdbyGekko: Yeah, yeah. So my Instagram is @prodbygekko. My email is that@gmail.com. My website is thesameshit.com. Very, very consistent, easy to look at. If anyone needs recording studio time, beats, anything like that, mixing, mastering, like, feel free to hit me up. I try to keep my prices pretty fair and I do my best to make it, you know, professional sounding. And I take it all very seriously and have an awesome space which you’re allowed to smoke in. So

54:12Maceo: it’s nice. Yeah, I fuck with that. And do you have any advice for like artists that are looking to develop themselves? Artists, vocalists, producer, engineer?

54:20ProdbyGekko: For artists, I’d say drop everything. Don’t worry, like, make sure things are mixed well, but like, don’t nitpick too much. Like, if -- just, just release content. You gotta -- you can’t just hold everything and then wait for to drop the perfect song and you’re gonna blow up. It doesn’t work that way, you know. You have to really -- you’re gonna drop a lot of music. Some of it’s gonna flop. You just keep dropping, you keep going for it, and then eventually something happens. And you delete all the old shit that wasn’t hitting. Mm.

54:47Maceo: You

54:47ProdbyGekko: know what I mean? For artists, just, just have content. Drop content, drop music. For producers, like, pick a software, get really good at it, work with other producers. That’s a really good way to like connect with other artists and stuff. And like, be observant of how other producers work and take things from different producers and then combine it with what you feel that you connect with. Mm-hmm. And then for engineers, I’d say work at a major studio for at least, you know, 6 months just to like learn how things sound good and how like, and learn the basics. And then also like spend a lot of time on YouTube, spend a lot of time on like forums, just learning how to like just tips and tricks, you know, and never stop learning with anything, with any of these things. Always just be open-minded and be ready to like to change something that you’ve been doing. If you’ve been doing something for 5 years and it’s been working for you, there might be a better way of doing it, you know? And that’s for all 3 categories.

55:47Maceo: I appreciate that feedback. Yeah, well, thank you so much for your time today.

55:52ProdbyGekko: Thank you so much for having me. I really appreciate it. It was a lot of fun.

55:55Maceo: Yeah, most definitely. Thank you everybody for listening to this episode of the We Didn’t Make This podcast. Um, definitely go tap in with Chris, tap in with Gekko. Phenomenal producer, phenomenal artist, great guy to work with. Lots of perspective. Definitely someone I’ve been learning from working in the studio. I was someone that definitely wasn’t rushing him. I pay for time and then I burn it like it’s nothing. Definitely don’t do that.

56:16ProdbyGekko: Which is -- there’s a bunch of ways to get -- some people, they book 2 hours, they want to record 6 songs.

56:24Maceo: Yeah, but

56:25ProdbyGekko: okay, your mixes aren’t going to be that good then. So there’s different processes with recording. I don’t think any of them are wrong. Some Some people come in, they’ll book an 8-hour session and do 2 songs and they’ll burn a ton of time, but those songs end up being really amazing because there’s so much thought put into them, you know. And some people will come and do 5 songs in 2 hours and like they’ll be fire too, but like maybe the, the depth that we went in wasn’t quite as awesome, you know. So it just depends.

56:55Maceo: You heard that. That’s a final and closing thought.

56:57ProdbyGekko: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

56:57Maceo: The depth is awesome. The depth is awesome. So definitely take your time so people can get to know you as an artist. We like the music, but we know who you are. Facts. But thank you so much for listening. Have a phenomenal day and come back next time. Find me on Twitter @WeThemNiggas.eth. Find me on Instagram @WeThemNiggas.eth as well. My personal @Maseo_D_Langston. Tap in if you want to collaborate, be on the podcast, hit me up as well. Right now my DMs are open, so feel free. Let’s connect, let’s collaborate, let’s do something fun and cool. Thank you so much.

57:26ProdbyGekko: Thank you.