An episode of We Them, the podcast Maceo started in college, where We Them Media began. It was published as audio only. This page carries its full transcript so the words can be read, searched and quoted. It is not a written piece. Listen to it where it was published.
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0:00Maceo: Hello everyone and welcome to the We Them Niggas podcast. Today, uh, I guess it’s an episode of wethemniggas.eth. We’ll see if I stick to this handle or not for the podcast segment. Uh, yeah, so today we’re having a conversation -- I’m having a conversation with Black Dave, the man leading the culture on-chain. Uh, that’s, that’s how I’m putting it. So welcome to another episode of the We Them Niggas podcast. What you’re listening to is the first episode in a new content series I’ll be doing under the umbrella of We Them Niggas podcast, wethemniggas.eth. In this series, I’ll be exploring content relevant to listeners interested in tech innovation and money. Over the last year, I’ve spent time learning about everything from the basics of what a blockchain is to how artists and community builders are leveraging this technology to achieve large-scale collective action. I’m a rapper, a community builder, and content creator myself, and I firmly believe that it is important for Black and brown communities to understand the innovation happening right now. And the financial upside available to those who understand work to find the opportunities to make money in the market as this ecosystem builds traction in our daily lives. This is not financial advice. This is just me documenting my journey as I learn and speculate on where the future may be headed. During this journey, I met and befriended Dave -- Davon. Yes, that’s correct. That’s how you pronounce your name. Yeah.
1:15B: Yeah, Davon, not David. That’s all that matters.
1:21Maceo: Uh, here, a well-known intellect and creative in the NFT-relevant circles. I saw this as the most fitting way to bring you all my first content piece focused on helping anyone interested to make sense of crypto and what it means for the future of money, technology, and culture. Um, so here I have Black Dave, also, also known as Davon, and, uh, I’m really honored to have him here with you guys. I met him being involved with Water and Music, which is a community we’ll get more into later on, but For right now, let’s just jump into it. So, uh, welcome, Black Dave. Thanks for being here.
1:53B: What’s up? Um, I was just thinking while you’re giving the intro about, um, nothing important first of all, but I’m wearing a Fullmetal Alchemist t-shirt and it has these holes in it, and I’m so upset because I like hate wearing shirts with holes in them. But maybe I’ll just stress it about a bit and, uh, get to it. I’m happy to be here. I’m happy to be doing this with you. Um, Didn’t we meet initially at, um, at the Future Wave, like, music tech, uh, Web3 summit?
2:25Maceo: Yep, exactly. That’s exactly where it was.
2:28B: Yeah, um, yeah, that was cool. Um, that was, that was such a random experience for me because I got asked, like, the night before if I wanted to perform at it, or like 2 nights before if I wanted to perform at it.
2:43Maceo: Really? Is that --
2:43B: Yeah, so like the summit was on Tuesday. I got asked on Sunday night if I wanted to perform. So essentially I booked a flight for Monday and then I think I flew out Wednesday morning, maybe Tuesday night. I think it was Wednesday morning. It was Wednesday morning for sure. And so yeah, it was like really last minute, but I had wanted to go to the summit, so I’d gotten invited, um, but I don’t live in New York City. And so, um, I was like, oh, I would love to go except I don’t live in New York. So this, this actually like aligned everything. And so that was, that was really sick. And we got to meet because of it. So yeah.
3:27Maceo: Yeah, and it was cool. It was cool. I, I enjoyed seeing your performance. I hadn’t -- I think I listened to maybe a few of your songs on like the OpenSea Um, but it was cool to see you perform live. Like, I remember I heard one you were talking about like Devil Fruit, and I was like, oh, it’s kind of One Piece, One Piece allusion going on here. And I’m a big One Piece fan, so I was like, okay, it’s pretty cool, I like that. And then like seeing you perform, I liked like hearing you talk about like the, like the street racing culture and anime and in Japan and the basketball stuff too. Like, I thought it was like a cool way. Like, I think like it feels like there’s so much to learn as I’m coming into this space. Um, Um, and I liked that, like, you were up there, you were doing your thing, you’re performing, you’re rapping, and you were also, like, leaving us more informed about stuff that, like, like, that you’re really excited about. And I like that. I feel like that’s something I appreciate a lot, like, being in the, in the Web3 and music space. It’s just like when I really meet people that know a lot of, like, things about, uh, a lot of different things, honestly. I feel like I meet a lot of polymaths in this space. Uh, it’s cool that how much I feel like I get to learn.
4:24B: Yeah. And, and for me, I think more than anything, it’s actually about culture. Like, it’s way more about culture than it is about like tech or whatever else. So it’ll be like, um, I was on the phone with my girlfriend earlier today and she, she came across the video of when Michael Jordan had like shattered a backboard. And there’s like a Jordan 1 called the Shattered Backboards. And then there’s a Jordan 1 called the Reverse Shattered Backboards. And I was like,
4:52Maceo: Mm-hmm.
4:53B: I was like, you know that there’s a shoe called the Shattered Backboards. And the reason that the shoe is in the colors that it is, is because it was the colors of the jersey Jordan was wearing when he shattered the backboard. And I feel like when you can connect culture to like products, in my case, music, but of course some other things, I think when you can connect culture to product is when you really start to like create really great things. And I think like that story is part of why the value of that shoe has always stayed up.
5:24Maceo: Yeah, and that’s honestly something that really interests me coming into this space, is like how will like hip-hop culture, um, like, like the youth culture that it is, like the -- how will like NFTs, how will these new tools, um, like how will the music industry changing, which is what seems like, like, like this, this technology is doing, is enabling independent artists to do new things, design new ways to interact with their audiences and things like that. And I’m really interested, like hip-hop being like like a youth-driven culture that it is, you know, like the kids decide, I really want to make music, they want to be rappers. Um, like, how do these new tools change the way that they’re going to be doing it in 5 years? Um, like, what is -- how is this going to disrupt the culture? I guess it’s kind of like what I’m interested in. Um, and I think it’s exciting because I think, like, uh, there’s just a lot to learn. There’s a lot of cool stuff happening. Um, and that’s why I think it’s so cool that you’re kind of experimenting in the way you are.
6:12B: I think, um, especially too, like Looking at the freedom, I think, that making music in Web3 has provided for me, and I think for a lot of artists, kind of brings us back to being able to create things that can change culture again. I think with the proliferation of social media, we kind of come across a lot of sameness. Mm. I follow a couple of accounts on Instagram that will take like similar photos and it’ll make a grid of all that photo that’s like the same thing. Like it’s like, you know, centered photo overlooking the mountains with your arms spread, you know, like sitting on the rocks at the foot of a waterfall, you know, like just like all these different, like similar pictures that are sort of like built for social media because just like we live in the social media age and how like I think we have an opportunity to get away from that. Even like in terms of music, I think we got into this thing where a lot of music ended up sounding really similar because we were seeing it work on social media. And I think Web3 is going to give a really good opportunity for people to get away from that sameness. Like there’s a -- I remember reading this article and I know I just keep jumping to random like culture things that don’t quite have anything to do with Web3, but I was reading this article about how -- Yeah, go ahead. Um, there’s something called Instagram face, which is essentially like the ideal face for Instagram, which is really just like a mix of all of these qualities of different races. So like what happens is a lot of the like most, uh, most followed people on Instagram actually have a really similar facial construction via surgery, of course, but it’s based on all these qualities from all these countries. So I always say like, like that, like LA, like hot girl, Instagram girl like facial look is what they call Instagram face. And so, you know, I think just getting away from sameness is kind of the fun part. And even if you equate that to SoundCloud, like back in the day, like 2012 to like maybe, maybe even a little bit earlier than that, like 2011, 2010 to like 2016, I think a lot of the music that was coming out through there was really unique. And then all that music inspired like the current wave of music that we’re on. But I think we’re experiencing a sameness Somewhat of a sameness, but I think there’s also a bit of expansion happening now through the music that came from that time.
8:47Maceo: You’re saying there’s an expansion, you’re saying right now, but like there’s like a -- there’s like an -- like, so that you’re saying that music having influenced where the music is now is leading to like there being more of that kind of music?
9:00B: Yeah, and then what happens is like over time we’ll just start to adjust and twist in different directions. It’s likely generational. But thinking about like, like, I feel like, you know, thinking about the blog era and how all those artists were so unique, but there was like also this really similar through line. And then thinking about SoundCloud rap and how like through SoundCloud rap, there was like a lot of the music was similar and had a really similar through line. And then getting away from SoundCloud rap and moving into like -- like stuff like, uh, like rage, like the rage rap sort of genre, um, and like mixing in like metal, trap metal, and stuff like that. Uh, it’s like a lot of this stuff has a similar through line, but I think that a lot of the artists who have really long-standing careers are able to find a way to be themselves and not have to fall into the trends. Um, and so it’s, it’s interesting to see how it jumps back and forth and how We’re able to use more facets than just our music to determine that. You know, it’s like, oh, this person’s really into fashion, this person’s really into video games, this person’s really into anime, this person’s really into whatever. And so I think we’re getting back to this point where people are starting to find ways to differentiate themselves after going through a period where everything was the same.
10:21Maceo: That makes sense. And so what is it like? How are you differentiating yourself then?
10:27B: For me, it’s, um, I’m, I’m really interested in anime. I think, I think there’s something about being Black and an anime nerd. And of course, um, you know, Black nerd blerd culture is sort of focused around that, like Black anime fans, Black gamers. Um, and one of my goals is making anime, especially while being Black, just cool. Like, uh, I think that a lot of kids were really getting made fun of when they were younger for their anime fandom in whatever form it takes. Um, something about me and like my anime fandom is that I’m not, uh, like I’m not super outward about it. Like I’m not someone who’s like cosplaying, I’m not someone who’s like reviewing anime on my YouTube or whatever, even though I love anime and I talk about it a lot. Um, my fandom isn’t like this super active, super outward thing. But I still know a lot about anime and watch a lot of anime and things like that. And I really want to find ways to create this crossover where like products are being made, things are happening, music is being made, art is being made that’s like around anime but isn’t necessarily anime. And then the things that get made resonate culturally. So, you know, that’s like the main thing is like anime is really like insular in the way that it works. Like It’s like, oh, you like anime? Well, that’s just something that only specific people like. But, um, if you look at like the Marvel, uh, movies especially, like there’s no -- it’s, it, it’s pop culture, right? I think there’s an opportunity for anime to be pop culture worldwide in the same way that, um, you know, Spider-Man is.
12:13Maceo: I would agree with that. I would definitely agree with that. I think when I talk to some people, I like -- I definitely agree with what you’re saying about people being like kind of like commented on or bullied or made fun of, etc., for like, for like being a fan of anime. Uh, I got really into anime when I was probably like elementary school, middle school, like, yeah, like late elementary school. And it’s funny that you mentioned Fullmetal Alchemist. I think that was the full metal -- that was the first full anime I watched was Fullmetal Alchemist Brotherhood. And like some of those intros and, and like exit songs, I still like know, like I don’t even know the words, you know, but I just like know the sound. And it’s kind of like absurd.
12:48B: That’s normal.
12:49Maceo: But it’s like, yeah, that’s, that’s true. And so I think, I think it is cool, and I think there’s a lot of like inspiring stories. I feel like, like for me, like we remarked on One Piece earlier, that’s definitely a show that’s helped me think about like how society functions, um, like how different societies function differently, um, and just like made me like, like look, look at the world around me and like in different ways. I feel like that conversations, um, hadn’t promoted me to otherwise, or led me to, I guess. Um, so how did you get into anime?
13:21B: Um, so back in 1999, I had, uh, I’d rented this game on Dreamcast called, uh, Sword of the Berserk: Guts Rage. Dreamcast, Sega video game system. Um, came out in the late ’90s, and it’s one of the greatest -- it’s actually the greatest video game system of all time. Mm-hmm. And, um, and there was a game on it called Sword of the Berserk: Guts Rage. And I had rented it, and it was like a beat ’em up slasher game. You like ran around like, uh, like just kill a bunch of monsters with this character who had this really huge big sword. Um, so I, I think I went online and started to look it up, like, and try to just like look up more information about the game, look up strategy guides, blah blah blah. And through that, found out about anime sort of formally. Mm-hmm. I think I’d been watching anime in other formats before that, whether it’s like watching anime on the Sci-Fi Channel like Saturday afternoons, like watching Toonami or whatever. And, but I didn’t know it was anime. I didn’t really know what anime was as a concept. So like, I attribute this game and Berserk, the anime that it references, Or the anime that the game is based on, I guess, um, to my like actual founding of anime. And, um, and so that’s how I got started actually, was through video games, uh, in the late ’90s.
14:49Maceo: That’s pretty dope. Is Berserk like the, the guy with the sword?
14:54B: Yeah.
14:55Maceo: That’s cool. And there was a, there was a game that came out. I don’t even know how old that anime is, but I remember watching it in high school, watching some of it. I didn’t watch all of it, admittedly.
15:04B: Yeah, I think it’s a mid-’90s anime, maybe 1994, 1996. Um, I feel like the golden era was in ’95, so like that’s early, that’s the beginning of it. And, um, and yeah, like I, uh, I didn’t know the game really existed because I didn’t know anime, but you’d be surprised how many, um, anime have games. Like, I just, um I just bought a Gundam game, actually. Um, a super obscure, random -- never heard of it before until like literally a few weeks ago. Um, I bought -- it’s, uh, it’s like Gundam Side Story. Um, and I just bought it. I was like, I didn’t know this existed. And I knew that Gundam games existed. There was a, um, there was like this game Gundam F91 for Super Nintendo that I played. There’s like all these Dragon Ball Z games for Super Nintendo. There’s like a series -- so like, you know, everyone knows Dragon Ball Z Budokai. So the sort of like 2D side-scroller equivalent of that was this game series called Super Butōden. And Super Butōden like had all the characters, um, because the Dragon Ball Z story is actually super, super old. And so on Super Nintendo, there were like 3 games. There was like Dragon Ball Z Hyper Dimension, which had this like weird like 2.5D vibe, like visually, but was still a 2D game. And, um, and those games are impeccable. And I feel like, um, you -- anyone listening, I think, needs to go check out, at least watch some videos about Super Butōden. It was, it was one of those games where, um, Super random, but most fighting games, right, like, um, you can’t, you can’t get further away from each other than the screen allows. You can now in a lot of games, but you couldn’t get further away from each other than the screen allowed. But Dragon Ball Z allowed you to get away from each other, and they would create a line in the screen, and then you could, at the top, it would show like a small version of your character, and you could like fight, you could fly. Um, so someone would be on the ground and someone would be in the air, and you can like shoot fireballs at each other and get into like a fireball battle and blah blah blah. All this stuff is like really just like ahead of its time. And, um, and so yeah, like there are a ton of just really fun anime, uh, based games that existed, and of course on Japanese systems. Um, but yeah, I, I -- video games were like a huge, huge, huge part of my anime journey, especially because I’m not someone who reads too much. And even like, this will be my last random anime game thing, but like, so Akira Toriyama does the art for a game called Dragon Quest, the game series. He’s always done the art for it since the late ’80s. He still does the art for it even now. I think Dragon Quest XI, I think, is coming out soon, if not already out, and he’s doing the art for that too. Mm-hmm. And he’s always done the art for it. And so there’s something really interesting about how manga artists in Japan, um, work sort of hand in hand with the video game industry.
18:16Maceo: Yeah, I never knew that actually. Well, we’ll put the link in the show notes for Dragon Quest so you guys can see the artwork. But also, what was the other game that you mentioned?
18:28B: Uh, bizarre. Oh, Super Butōden, the Dragon Ball Z Super Butōden games.
18:31Maceo: Super Butōden. Yeah, we’ll link some clips in the show notes as well for you guys. But I think, like, I really have not gone so in-depth in my anime. Like, he seems to be thoroughly, thoroughly, thoroughly involved in the scene, thoroughly familiar. I think that’s cool.
18:48B: I think it’s about culture for me. It’s -- I think a lot of people just watch the shows, but I’m really interested in the culture of anime.
18:55Maceo: Hmm, that’s pretty dope. And you say you wanna, you wanna bring it to pop culture?
19:01B: Yeah, absolutely, 100%.
19:04Maceo: And what do you think would -- like, like, for someone, I guess, that’s like not super -- like, they’re like, oh, like they discount anime. What would you -- what, what do you think they’re missing out on in terms of like the -- like what value-add this culture has, um, in particular, if that tracks?
19:22B: I think anime is about stories. I think, um, the stories are normally related to people as well. I think when you look at anime in Japan and the way that anime affects culture in Japan, you can really see the potential for worldwide, like, cultural influence. So like, a great example is this anime called Slam Dunk, came out in the early ’90s, and when it released, it was actually the reason almost single-handedly that basketball has a presence in Japan even today. The influence is like, I think, documented so well that Slam Dunk actually has an Air Jordan shoe, the Jordan 6 Slam Dunk. And in the show, they talk a lot about American basketball players and basketball greats and what they, what they made a point to do in the show that I thought was really interesting and probably really important for the adoption of basketball. was they showed you how to play basketball in the show. So the main character didn’t know how to play basketball at the beginning of the show. He was just a really big guy who could dunk a basketball, and, um, he was a lot of things, but just for the sake of simplicity, um, and, and so what they would do is they would explain dribbling, they’d explain passing, they explained the foul, they explained free throws, they explained layups, they explained 3-pointers, like They explain all this stuff. And I know a lot of people who know about anime and basketball often talk about Kuroko no Basket, Kuroko’s Basketball, whatever you call it. And, um, Mm-hmm. But that was like so many years after Slam Dunk had really made a point to introduce, um, introduce basketball into the world. And then the creator of Slam Dunk, uh, loved basketball so much, loves basketball so much that he has a manga called Real which is actually about wheelchair basketball and like going through that. And so he’s created 2 like masterful basketball shows or basketball stories. And that’s just like, that’s just one example, right? Like, you know, there -- one of the things I think is really interesting too is like this idea in anime that kids can save the world. which I think a lot of us agree with in terms of, um, in terms of culture, like pop culture. I think a lot of people will agree that pop culture is sort of driven by kids, right? Like TikTok and things like that right now. Mm-hmm. Evangelion and like Akira of like the late ’80s, early ’90s, like, are attributed to be some of the earliest stories of kids saving the world, where like, um, the fate of the world rests in kids’ hands. So like when you look at Evangelion, the story is based around these kids because the kids are the only ones who can pilot these mechs, um, biomechs I guess, to, to stop the world from getting destroyed by the angels. Um, of course the story turns into a whole bunch of things and, and it, and it’s actually really related to like how adults have caused so many problems of the world. Um,
22:31Maceo: Mm-hmm.
22:32B: Because especially in that time period, you’ll you’ll see a lot of like cyberpunk and like not anti-government but government-focused and especially like police-focused anime and manga because a lot of those writers are like the children of World War II parents, right? Like children of World War II adults. So like in the ’70s and the ’80s, they’re like in their 30s, you know, they might be in their 20s and they’re writing these stories from the perspective that their parents are always trying to get them to act a certain way post-World War II. And even looking at like Takashi Murakami and like his art movement called Superflat, it’s also like this art movement based around like post-World War II culture from, from a youth perspective. And so looking at how kids can save the world, I think, is something that probably really empowers children over in Japan to think that they can do whatever it is. And I think on the other side of that, there’s like a ton of stuff that just talks about life and really shows you like how to interact with people and like what love looks and feels like and like, you know, what friendship looks and feels like and like making hard decisions about different things. And like, there’s just so many things I think that anime really hits on that, um, that can have a proper influence on the world and how people are. Um, and, and I think that there’s a chance for that to go global because like Um, there’s jokes in like Family Guy and like The Simpsons where like Homer or Peter will get fired from their job and they’ll have this like fourth wall moment where it’s like, um, they’ll go, oh well, I’ll be back at my job the next episode. And it’s like, why should you be back at your job next? If I get fired from my job, I’m not back on my job tomorrow. That’s how it works. Um, but anime does a really good job of like when you’re fired from your job, the next episode you still don’t have a job. And they continue to sort of push through life. And I’ve always liked that. And I think those stories is why people who love anime in general love anime, is because they’re stories and they’re not like these, like, like set of micro moments. And I think through that there’s a huge ability to influence the world. And then if people can create things around it, that sort of China culture, I think that’s like the winning formula.
24:46Maceo: Yeah, I got that. So some things, some things that really stuck out to me inside of what you just said were like There can be some alternative scripts for, like you said, what love looks like, what friendship looks like, what -- like, it could be that we’re learning how to play sports. We could be learning about really anything inside of these stories. And I think that’s kind of the beauty of having something be so long form. It’s like, you know, if you read a novel, like you said, like the next chapter, you don’t have a job. And I feel like anime is kind of like a chapter-by-chapter kind of thing. And I feel like with most kind of cartoons, they do kind of tend to fall in sitcoms. Or I feel like maybe like they -- like, I mean, I don’t see as many. I don’t really watch as many cartoons now, to be completely honest. But I do feel like the -- there’s just a huge canon of anime. There’s so many different kinds of stories that have been told already inside this legacy of literature, manga included, not just anime. So I absolutely hear what you’re saying, and I’m all about it, guys. Go check out some anime. You heard him drop Evangelion. I haven’t actually seen that yet, but something I really like about One Piece, like this premise that this kid can save the world, he can change things, he can upend an unjust, like, structure of it, like, like, of systemic power that is the World Government in the -- in One Piece. And it’s like, he’s like, I’m gonna be the, the, the king of the pirates, like the king of, like, rebel culture. I’m like, what?
26:01C: Yeah, and when you think about pirates as, like, rebel culture and not so much as pirates, that’s -- that you really just, like, opened up, like, a big thought for me in terms of that. That’s crazy. That’s really sick. Sorry to interrupt, keep going.
26:16Maceo: No, no. What are we thinking? What’s the thought?
26:18C: Like, I, you know, it’s, it’s really interesting, I think, because I was, I was talking about like generations and like generational like curses and like the way that the previous generation wants to see the next generation act. And, um, even like thinking about like the terminology, the worst generation, right? The worst generation is always like the, the youngest generation. Um, you can sort of dub it that every generation that’s the youngest one is the worst one just because the older generations think that they’re doing everything wrong. And it’s like these kids are like, no, the world is ours right now. And like, we are in control of it and we should be able to dictate how it goes. And the generations before are like, you’re too young, you don’t understand the world, blah, blah, blah. And it’s like, yeah, but like by the time I receive power, you don’t understand the world, you know? And so it becomes this sort of battle and like this tug of war between like the youth in like rebels and then like the establishment and the, um, the older generations and like the boys clubs, etc., etc. So that was just really interesting to call it like the rebels. That was sick.
27:24Maceo: Yeah, because I feel like I’ve always tried to, to get a sense of like what else to call them. And like in One Piece, if you guys don’t know, uh, they refer to like the -- I guess the age group of pirates that Luffy is in is like the, the Worst Generation. And these are like a generation of pirates who have reemerged after, uh, like, yeah, you should go watch the trailer. But the, the -- yeah, I like the, the idea of the rebel culture because it feels like there is an established order, but the established order is that some people are ruled over by pirates who are like in, in cahoots with the World Government, who you think is trying to maintain order. Mm-hmm. Um, but order is for a specific group of people, not for everybody. Some people do exist in disorder and chaos. Um, but no one’s actually coming to, to right those, those spaces. Um, and then here you have like pirates coming talking about, well, we’ll create justice, we’ll create order that actually, um, is, is in public interest. Um, and I feel like in that sense, the only way I can see them really is like, I feel like Monkey D. Luffy, which is the protagonist, and his crew tend to be like the instigators of rebel causes wherever they go. Yeah. And I kind of like that, you know, like they’re the revolutionaries, like, and they find the revolutionaries wherever they go. And I think that’s like a really cool premise, especially like I’m really interested in collective action and coalition building. That’s a big part of what interests me in the cryptocurrency space as well, is that it strikes me that the Occupy Wall Street movement, it seems to me, is in many ways value-aligned with the bankless movement in terms of decentralizing monetary power and seeing like the fiscal policies implemented by different governments in the world, namely the United States government. have less of an effect on global markets, um, and just like people around the world. So I think it’s like, like in One Piece, I see that we can strive for more collective action, but allyship really takes us getting to know what one another are dealing with inside of struggles. I think that’s what’s cool about Luffy is that he travels the world, he meets people, he sees what they’re dealing with, um, and then he helps them to strategize, strategize around creating solutions. And it’s like cool to see the story of somebody doing that again and again and again. It’s like,
29:26C: I agree,
29:26Maceo: who’s doing
29:26C: it? And you know what’s interesting too is like, um, when you talk about like, like the struggles of people, um, One Piece has the, the government powers, One Piece has racism, One Piece has like all these different sorts of things that people actually go through within it. And, um, of course they tie it to another story, but, um, or like make it non-fictional or whatever and use, you know, different you know, not everyone’s a human, quote unquote, within it, but, um, still even having that, that version of racism exist and, and sort of overcoming that and, and talking through that and going through that experience and, um, having the, the quote unquote powers that be that exist, um, the Celestial Dragons in this case, and like all that, like, I think that’s really interesting. But, um, I’ll, I’ll pause with the anime rants and like jump back a bit into like Web3 and crypto and stuff like that. I agree that collective action is so interesting. And something that I think is really cool about all of these sort of decentralized communities and decentralized economies that are coming to exist is that, yes, some of them have these sort of centralized groups of power, but there are many of them that while they do still influence the culture of the cryptocurrency, I think Ethereum is like a really big example of this. Like, Ethereum is like, we don’t own Ethereum, right? But we are a group of people who influence the culture of Ethereum. And it’s not that other people can’t influence the culture of Ethereum, it’s just that because we like are the ones who sort of built the foundation, we’re the ones who influence this culture. But anyone can do anything. And then thinking about how like decentralized finance in general is kind of like that. And I think, you know, with, with Bitcoin especially, and like really being like Satoshi Nakamoto’s, like, like truly anonymous and no one knows who Satoshi is, and, and saying like, look, like we just want to be in control of our assets, like truly, um, is, is really a big deal. And of course, like existing in, in that sort of realm and space is tough and dangerous and dangerous. I mean, it is dangerous, but, um, not as dangerous as I just made it sound. But like, it’s tough and it’s like a lot to learn and a lot to go through, and life is a bit different because of it. You know, people who want to live completely off of the like, uh, fiat monetary system that we live in in our countries, like, they really have to find the ways to do that, and it’s, it’s not always easy. Um, and so I think that like moving into this thing where the collective has power over, over the thing, as opposed to where, um, the people who don’t actually care about us do, is like a really, really big deal. And I think that’s, that’s kind of like the crypto OGs, you know, they’ll say that that’s what’s really important is that they’re in control and not people who don’t care about them.
32:23Maceo: Yeah, I mean, I absolutely, I absolutely see that as like what’s most inspiring to me about this space is that there are people who are value-aligned and that the status quo or in powers that don’t support the public interest, um, get to make choices on our behalf and really at the expense of our autonomy at the end of the day. And what choices we were able to -- like, what are -- what our options are in society, whether it’s healthcare, whether it’s our employment, whether it’s like just like the way our lives can be structured. Uh, so absolutely. I guess I’m kind of -- so I guess can I kind of ask you about like your journey into crypto then? I feel like that’s a good place to segue, um, and kind of like when you first got what Bitcoin is Uh, when you first got what Ethereum is, when you first got that like this can be a, a change, like what leads to a change in the hands around who has power over, I guess, these, these systems that you’re talking about?
33:14C: So I got into crypto, I think 2017, just like a lot of people, but not -- it was kind of like the, the whole ICO movement had gotten so big that, uh, it had gotten to regular people, right? And I was like a nerd, but like the reason that I -- what’s up?
33:37Maceo: Sorry, I wanted to pause you to -- what’s an ICO? Just for people to like -- I know, initial coin offering.
33:42C: So when, um, so initial coin offering was what it stood for. So like when, um, when in the stock market when companies quote unquote go public, um, it was kind of the same thing where these different like cryptocurrencies would want to start building out their ecosystem. So people would have like a mass investment within these different crypto ecosystems’ initial coin offerings. And so lots and lots of, lots and lots of cryptocurrencies were popping up and making a ton of money through this like ICO value or whatever. And, and so that people making money through crypto was starting to hit regular culture. And, uh, and so my sisters and myself had spent a little bit of money on crypto back in, uh, back in 2017 and didn’t fully understand like the ethos of all it -- just understood that it was another way for people to make money. And back then, um, and in general, right, like a lot of Black folks don’t know how to invest money in things. But, uh, seeing how we were able to invest in crypto was really interesting. And I had a couple of investment, um, I had some investment in Apple because I worked through them. And so I was part of like the stock program that Apple had for their employees. So I had some Apple stock. But, um, like buying stocks and stuff, we really had no clue how it worked. Like we were just, you know, we were just buying it. And so, um, Yeah, that was like, that was the vibe. And, uh, and so that’s how I got into crypto. But then I think a bit later, um, some of my other friends who were into crypto really went through and explained it to me. And I remember, uh, one of the first things when I really started to get an understanding for what crypto was, was I was like, wait, so communities can have their own currency? And, um, And we’re like, yeah. And I was like, yo, communities should make crypto. Like, that should be the thing, right? Like, like a neighborhood should have its own currency and then it just moves within that neighborhood or whatever. And obviously that hasn’t happened, I think, in any form of scale. But I thought that was super interesting because then I -- that’s when I really started to see like the possible freedom of like what it could be, where I’m like, oh, so this is like an alternative currency system, even not having a full idea of what the blockchain was, you know, and, and I guess, you know, I’ll explain a little bit, but the blockchain is essentially like, like the accounting books of this cryptocurrency. You know, everything that happens within this cryptocurrency is shown on what’s called a blockchain, which I often just say is a big-ass spreadsheet, but it just shows everything that’s happened within a specific cryptocurrency community. And so thinking about how, like, if you did have something where it’s like even some form of discrepancy, it’s just a big receipt system where, where like you went to a store and said, no, I bought this thing but I never got it, or I bought this thing but it wasn’t the thing. You can go onto the blockchain, this large receipt system, and see everything that this person’s done, everything that this person’s bought, every transaction that they’ve made. And, um, and I think that, uh, creates a lot of really interesting opportunities, like especially on the marketing side. And, um, and so that’s kind of how I got into crypto and So like between like 2017 and like, I’d say like 2019, 2020, that’s how my understanding of crypto came to be. For me, it was like, I’m from Charleston, South Carolina. There’s like definitely a massive difference, I think, in the lifestyles of like Black folks and white folks in the city. And in trying to think about how the movement was like, How do we keep money in the community? You know, like there’s -- I don’t know the statistics -- but I know that there are statistics that show like how short of a time that black money stays in black hands in terms of like transferring to like more and more businesses as opposed to other communities. And I think like I’m not even gonna -- I’m not even gonna give numbers -- but when you think and look at that, there’s like this opportunity using crypto where it’s like unless. Someone adopts this sort of currency, they wouldn’t be involved in it. But if you can get a lot of especially Black businesses involved in it, then this cryptocurrency can trade between these communities, and then people can sort of cash out these currencies in order to do what they got to do. And so when people are like, let’s say for instance, even going in and buying stuff with money, you can invest that back into the crypto and then increase the value of the crypto. And then when these businesses sell the crypto to pay their bills or live their lives or whatever. It’s this currency that sort of constantly fluctuates by how much is coming into it and going out of it. But all that aside and how sort of tough that can be to figure out, I think that it could be a really interesting proposition or would have been or whatever. But I think that you’ll see a lot of probably like third world countries implement an idea of that, and America will probably The government will always fight tooth and nail to control our finances. So that was like one of my big early moments where I was like, oh, okay, cool, this is crypto, uh, far before NFTs.
39:09Maceo: Hmm, that’s pretty cool. And then so, uh, what, what led you into NFTs then? I think you told me one of your friends, no?
39:17C: Yeah, so one of my friends is actually a, a Bitcoiner who’s like, so he’s super about that like financial, like, uh independence from the government. Um, he was in NFTs for, you know, just making money pretty much. He wasn’t like a massive enthusiast of art or anything. And he, uh, he was one of the guys who was just on Nifty Gateway, um, which is an NFT marketplace, just like selling and flipping NFTs for tons and tons of money, knowing that the artists were getting a ton of money and then the collectors who were reselling this art were also making a ton of money. He was on that list and Um, he was like, Dave, you should make NFTs. And I was like, oh, well, I don’t draw and I don’t do 3D art, so I don’t -- there’s not really anywhere I fit in. And I probably should have tried to figure something out back then, but I didn’t. This was like early 2020, maybe like spring, right when the pandemic was really kicking off. And, um, and I was like, no, I’m not doing it. And, uh, and then towards the end of the year is when I actually got into NFTs. Um, I, I’d been making music all through 2020 and I just figured, okay, let’s just do a cover art that I didn’t use. And, um, and that’s actually my very first NFT is like this unused cover art. And, um, and so that’s how I got into NFTs. And, and I didn’t even mint like a music NFT until March of 2021, even though I had minted my very first NFT in December of 2021. And so,
40:50Maceo: uh,
40:52C: my first NFT wasn’t on NiftyGate. My first NFT was on Rarible. But, um, but like just finding out that like you had these options and it didn’t cost a ton of money. And I already had crypto because I had invested with my sisters a few years before. Mm-hmm.
41:07Maceo: Um,
41:07C: and, and like just seeing all of that and getting all of that, um, sort of in place. It was cool, it was fun. Um, and then I just kept going. I kept finding more and more ways. And I feel like as I was learning more about the possibilities of blockchain technology using NFTs -- and I’ll explain what NFTs are, uh, in a sec -- like, I, I think that I was able to start to see possibility everywhere. And I was like, oh, so I can do this, I can do this, I can do this, I can do this. And just like, um, I think being a nerd combined with like, uh, being like a tech nerd, video game nerd, combined with being somebody with like a marketing degree, combined with being somebody who makes art. Um, it was like the perfect sort of collaboration of interests for me. Um, and then like, just like give an idea of like how I would explain an NFT to somebody who really doesn’t understand what it is. I often say that it’s like, um, It’s like just owning a digital item that, that like has its own uniqueness and like your digital item is different than everyone else’s digital item. And so that makes it have value. And then there are some people who want your digital item for whatever purpose, and so you can sell it to them and, and that’s it. That’s pretty much how NFTs work. It uses, it uses a lot of technology under that, under the hood. to make that, that work. But, um, you know, we don’t know how our cell phones work, so I don’t know if it’s always in the benefit of explaining it to people. And even --
42:41Maceo: Yeah.
42:42C: Um, I, I sold a few NFTs and bought a car, and my mom had asked me what NFTs were, and I was like, well, you know, like, and like video games, how people can buy skins. I was like, imagine if there was only one of a skin where you were able to sell it to other people. And the person who had the skin was like the number one person in the world at that game. And so the person who might want the skin, it’s of course a totally luxury buy, but they might pay a lot of money for that skin because they want to game and be like, I’m the guy who has that skin that this person had before me. And so, you know, just thinking about how -- It’s a jersey. Exactly. It’s the -- but it’s like a game-worn jersey or it’s like the only jersey that they ever had, right? Like if you only ever had one jersey, but I think it’s more like a game-worn jersey, right? It’s like this specific game is where this jersey was worn and that’s what makes this unique. You know, it’s like there’s so many examples if you think about especially like Michael Jordan and Kobe Bryant, like basketball players who like give their shoes away, you know, at the end of games. Those shoes, part of the value of the shoe is the game they were played in. So it makes it unique, even though there are lots of copies of that shoe that exist. That shoe is unique because of the game that it was played in and the person who wore it before. And so when you just flip that on its head and jump 20, 30 years into the future and you turn it digital, because I think people are going to exist even more in digital worlds than we do now, then it kind of makes sense. Because there are people who just live, like, in game worlds, or people who go on Discord and, like, they don’t actually talk to each other unless they’re playing games together, you know? Like, they’re all friends, they’re all great friends, but they actually only play games together. I have friends like that that I consider friends of mine, but we literally would -- I would get home from work, they would get home from work, and we would play Overwatch for 5, 6 hours every day, and that’s what we did. And we’re friends, but like we don’t hang out. They live across the country. You know, like all we don’t we don’t like text each other. We don’t we don’t you know like we don’t do anything else except when it’s time to play Overwatch. And I think like these digital native relationships exist, and people might not realize because we don’t think about them in the same way that we think about like owning an artwork or going to a concert or. whatever it might be, hanging out in real life, going to the coffee shop, blah, blah, blah. And so it’s just something that I think is coming down the line, and it’s really sometimes, I think, hard for certain types of people to see. But without regard to what they see, I think it’s on the way.
45:32Maceo: That makes sense. And I think it’s good that you touched on digital collectibles inside of video games kind of specifically, because when I went to SmartCon, the Chainlink conference hosted this Like, there was a lot of conversation around, uh, people speculating that video games will be what bring NFTs in as digital collectibles, kind of, you know, to, to a lot more people because so many people already are playing video games. Um, do you have any thoughts on that, a take on that, any interest
46:00C: in the
46:00Maceo: video game space?
46:02C: In middle school, I played -- I was in 8th grade and I played this MMORPG called EverQuest. Uh, in EverQuest, essentially, like, uh, you would have a character, you would get all these items, you, you know, do all these fighting, and you would level your character, get all the cool items, go on quests, blah blah blah blah blah. And so what, um, what I did was, or what I was thinking was like, okay, when I got into NFTs, I was like, this would be like a crazy parallel, I think, to MMORPGs in the sense that my character can be an NFT, all the items that I unlock are NFTs, Everything that I do in the game is NFTs. And if I’m able to trade those with people, then I can make money from it while having fun. And I think that’s such an interesting experience that I think gaming is really gonna take cues from, even on the skins game. You know, skins, I think I read skins is a $17 billion industry, just skins, not all of gaming, just skins in games. Whoa. And so thinking about how if that industry could be transformed and democratized in the same way that like Instagram democratized a lot of creative fields, right? A lot of visual artists all of a sudden were able to get work because people saw it on Instagram, photographers, musicians, producers, etc., etc. I think this creates a world for that. On the, on the other side of that, something that I think is worth being wary of is like how this could devalue the skins market where people are now selling skins for a quarter or a dollar or whatever, as opposed to like $10, $20, $50 instead. But I think it’s going to be all culturally focused, but I think it’s going to be a huge deal.
47:50Maceo: That makes a lot of sense. No, I can’t imagine that. I hadn’t really thought about how it would devalue it, but I feel like even if it does, if things do find themselves being devalued, I feel like that’s just like the market price all of a sudden.
48:05C: Yeah, it’s, it’s supply and demand, right? So when, when NFTs for skins become an open market, if, if it becomes an open market, um, now that everyone can make skins officially for games, right, then skins will inherently become cheaper. Um, the same way that like with beat making, Timbaland was doing a thing the other day, we were talking about how he’s made like $300,000, $500,000 per beat. And he was sort of saying that, like, because everybody was making beats and selling them for cheap, it made the ability for him to get beats off for $300,000 near impossible. Because now the market is filled with all these people who could be making beats for $300,000 but are selling them for $10,000 instead. And, uh, and so that’s what I really mean by devaluing the market, is that the supply will go up and there will be this competition and there will be a lot of people who will compete based on price as opposed to quality.
49:00Maceo: So what do you, uh, I guess that kind of brings us back to the music space. So what do you kind of see like NFTs, like what, what’s the value add you see of NFTs in the music industry for independent artists? Like what, what’s kept you involved, I guess, in the NFT space as a musician?
49:17C: I think there’s 2 sides to it, right? There’s like the artist view and there’s like the collector slash fan view. So like On the artist side, it’s super obvious, right? Like, I have opportunities to make money, more money than I can make through streaming, more money than I can make through like stuff like Bandcamp, but only that’s only culturally. It’s not -- I don’t think that the music is more or less valuable because it’s on Bandcamp or it’s an NFT, but I have an opportunity there to do that as well. And then I can use that as an artist to create more art. And I think something I was talking about much earlier is like I’m able to be myself. And so I can, I can sort of have this come up and make this revenue from being myself and putting out the music that I want to put out. And I think that that’s a really, really, really big thing as far as being a creative with NFTs as a, as a musician. I think in addition to that, saying that I’m also like a tech nerd and putting that on the other side, I can use the technology to do things that I couldn’t do just through music. I could possibly make a game. I could possibly create these unique interactive experiences between me and the person who has the NFT. Maybe the NFT becomes a skin in a game. I think there’s a ton of options that could come to be. And I think that kind of ties into the collector side, right? Like on that side, Because like each individual song is unique and has like a limited edition of them that, that exists, like a limited quantity of them that exist, they have value and they’re tradable. And so if people want to be involved culturally in the music because the music itself isn’t actually hidden, this gives them the opportunity and they can sort of trade on like the proof of being in that culture. I think a lot about like Fashion in general is like -- I like to say that fashion is the first sentence in a conversation between 2 people. And so like, you know, if I was wearing the black and red Jordan 1s, the Banned 1s, like if someone saw me in those and they knew what they were, they don’t have to say, yo, you like Michael Jordan? Yo, do you collect sneakers? Like they’re questions that are answered just by looking at me. Um, I was -- I went out of town with my girlfriend, uh, and my friends yesterday to New York City, and I brought my Hunter x Hunter -- I know it’s Hunter x Hunter, but I’m old -- um, jacket. And, uh, she was wearing it and people kept coming up to her and were like, oh man, that’s such a crazy art. Oh man, I love that jacket. Oh man, I love Hunter x Hunter. Oh, I love -- like, I love whatever. And None of them said, do you watch anime? None of them said, you know, like, do you like clothes? But it was all just like, oh man, I love that jacket. Oh, I love that show. Oh, I like -- they skipped so much of the conversation. And, um, so I think what’s, uh, what’s gonna be interesting too about owning NFTs, it’s gonna be skipping a lot of conversation because I can just be like, oh, you own that album? Okay, you like this. Oh, you own this song? You like this. You own this artwork? You like this. And so I think that’s going to be the real value of music NFTs down the line is it’s, it’s really going to be a cultural indicator. And then I think if the thing that the NFT, like especially the creator of the NFT, if the value of that, like the person, the individual goes up where they might become a bigger artist, they might go on tour, they might do this, they might do that, then the value of that culture goes up, right? It’s like It’s like if I have the LeBron shoes, right? But then LeBron becomes a terrible player, which won’t happen, then the value of the LeBron shoes might go down because of it. And so it’s sort of similar to that where like now you have this cultural indicator that I think is super, super interesting.
53:12Maceo: I agree. I think for me coming into the crypto Web3 space, like a huge part of the learning curve has been like learning culture where demonstrated commitment means so much. Um, like, I never really thought of like that concept before, but I feel like, you know, when you buy the NFT, um, when I buy the Black Dave token, you know, it is like a signal, you know, that I do want to support you in any ways that I can. Um, even like in having you on here, like, I want to give you a platform. I think you’re a brilliant man. Um, and it’s just like super dope to be able to, to connect and converse with you. And I think people should, should know that, uh, and celebrate that, um, that we can document
53:45C: these things.
53:46Maceo: Yeah. And further than that, it’s a signal to others. That’s, that’s it. So yeah, I definitely agree with that. And I -- what are you gonna say?
53:51C: I’m done, I’m done. Keep going, keep going.
53:53Maceo: No, and I think it’s, uh, it’s exciting whether it’s like in water and music, getting involved in research, like, uh, or in other, other communities. Like, I’m also involved in the Boys Club community, um, and I went to like one of their events recently, and I think it’s really cool what they’re doing, trying to create like a community to help onboard, uh, women and gender non-binary folks, I believe, um, into Web3 space and just giving them, giving that community space Like you said, like you said earlier, you mentioned a boys club, like the world kind of being run by boys clubs and trying to create a space that isn’t necessarily -- where that’s not necessarily so. And where like, like the needs of people who don’t necessarily find those spaces to work from them, for them can be met. I think that’s a really exciting premise. I think the idea that people are building space and building communities and building collective power is really exciting to me. And I think that like when you can see people actively like participating, Supporting initiatives, getting involved. I think like people see that you care. That’s really what I like about this culture is that it really is showing up, you know, and whether it’s in Twitter Spaces or in the Discord conversations or just like in the group chats, you know, being active, being in communication, talking to people. People really get to see how much you care. And I think it’s cool to have been on the Twitter, you know, seeing people tweet stuff, seeing what people have to say in Twitter Spaces, in the Water Music Discord, in the Voice Cup Discord, just see what’s top of mind. for people that do care and seeing what people that do care are doing in these different communities has definitely been like super inspiring for me just in terms of like, like, I think sometimes being in the world, it can feel like people don’t care about certain kinds of issues. But I feel like being in some of these communities and these conversations, really cool to see how much people care and how much time, you know, after work people want to put into things that aren’t going to pay them.
55:28C: You
55:29Maceo: know, just because of like what they see the value add being to society or community.
55:35C: I agree. And I think too, like, this, this, uh, if we can start to put -- and this is something that I think we’ll be working through for a long, long time in crypto and NFTs -- if we can put the culture ahead of the financial value, I think that’s really going to be the thing where, where people start to see what this can be. Um, a lot of people see NFTs and crypto as like an investment vehicle, um, but it can be as much of a cultural vehicle as much as an investment vehicle.
56:05Maceo: Okay, and say a little bit more about that.
56:06C: So like, so something that I think a lot about when it comes to me making my own NFTs is like, I want people who own my NFTs to, I want to be able to have them have their first sentence out of the way, right? So when I’m talking about Fashion Avenue’s first sentence out of the way, For instance, the NFT collection Atom Bomb Squad, which is by The Hundreds. If you own that NFT, and I think this was much more at the time of its inception than now, you are familiar with the brand The Hundreds. You are probably a fan of streetwear. You probably like this kind of music. The Hundreds is a brand that’s largely based in ’90s nostalgia, so you probably like Back to the Future. you probably like Ghostbusters, you probably like Ninja Turtles. Like, there are certain things that you can, you can say about someone by owning that NFT. I think similarly on the music front, there are a lot of people that you can say similar things to when it comes to the music that they listen to, whether it’s pop music, whether it’s metal, whether it’s, you know, rap music. But then depending on the genre of rap music, depending on the genre of the metal, like I think that’s kind of like the goal that I see. One project that I’m working on right now, we’re in the middle of like a campaign, is called Kindred Hearts. And we talk a lot about how the idea of the project is that when you mint this NFT, we donate 50% of our money to the American Heart Association right now. But on the other side of that, when you have that NFT in your wallet, It’s a signal to others that you care about donating money and charity and giving and stuff like that. And so just by owning that, you are signaling to others that you’re into those things. And so I try to think about what does -- what’s the signal of a Black Dave NFT? And I think I’m a bit away from it, but I do know that I want it to be tied to the things that I love and I believe in. So hopefully down the line, um, just because I feel like this might be your follow-up question, like, I think that, you know, Black Dave ownership might represent being a fan of anime. It might represent being a fan of streetwear and all these different things. So that’s, that’s the vibe.
58:29Maceo: And you’re talking about Black Dave token now? Yeah,
58:34C: I’m talking about any of my NFTs.
58:36Maceo: Oh, I see. All the, uh, I got that.
58:38C: Yeah, if you own anything by me I want it to be a signal to others that you like specific things. If you read hypebeast.com, you know, you like specific things. And so I think there’s going to be an equivalent in terms of like owning tokens by certain people.
58:53Maceo: I got that. Well, I guess my follow-up question is then, can you kind of explain what Black Dave token is to people? Um, like, I feel like for a lot of people, they get Bitcoin and they’re like, oh, that Bitcoin stuff. And like, to even think like, what is a Black Dave token? I feel like can feel really far-fetched to people.
59:09C: Black Dave Token is like something that’s been really interesting. I always feel like when people ask me this question, instead of answering the question, I start telling a story. But Black Dave Token is essentially a token that is designed for people who believe in what I’m doing to put their money where their mouth is. And like really take a chance on supporting someone who might be able to do something great as a creative and someone who participates in different cultures. Black Ape Token kind of started from like someone in the Web3 space is doing an investment fund where they’re investing like a million dollars into different artists Like maybe to the tune of like $250,000 per artist. And InWater Music, we were interviewing him and someone was like, why don’t I just make my own token that’s worth $250,000? And then someone said, when Black Dave token? And I had posted like a meme on Twitter of like the first slide of a deck that said Black Dave token, your money, my ideas. And, and people were like DMing me like, yo, I’d love to see the rest of the deck. And I was like, oh, I was joking, but maybe I’ll make it. And so I, um, so through that I decided to make it. Um, I ended up finding, uh, partners in this platform called Bonfire, which is like a sort of site creation tool where I can, uh, put my own tokens and things like that. And I just did it. So I have a million tokens in existence, um, and the goal is to raise 250 Ethereum total. I’m just depending on the price of Ethereum at the time. I, I was thinking about it being like, um, just like a way to invest in my ideas. I think -- and this is such a, a bad example just because of the timing, but I think it’s still a fine example -- is, um, if you think back to the Yeezus tour, Kanye West Uh, Ye, I guess, respectively. Okay. Um, remember when he was on tour and he was asking Mark Zuckerberg for money on stage and was like, yo, I’ve done all these things, I have all this experience, I have proof that I’ve influenced culture before, I just need resources to do it more. Um, that’s kind of like a lot of the idea behind this is like, I feel like especially in terms of like Web3 music over my last couple of years in the space that I’ve done a lot, I’ve influenced a lot, and with the proper resources, I can do a lot more. And so this is an opportunity for that. In addition, you know, I really hope that when people support me through Black Dave Token, that they feel like a sense of community with all of the other people who do. So like when I was talking earlier about how it’s like that first sentence I think that people who get into Black Dave token, they’ll all have a similar first sentence with each other. Oh, so you like believe in the possible impact on culture that Dave can have, you know, and then maybe that’s what they talk about as their first thing, and then they can start talking about all the things they like, or oh, like, you know, recognizing the music and things like that. So that’s something that I’m super pumped about. The Black Dave token is I think a way for me to build resources around my ideas. And I believe that if I can build resources around my ideas, then I can have a decent-sized impact on culture.
1:02:50Maceo: Well, that’s hype. And I definitely agree. I think you’re definitely someone that’s well positioned to have an impact on culture. I think even you performing at the Future Wave, is an example of that. People’s already existing awareness of that. I think you already are having an impact, I would say. How is the raise going for you right now? Like, where are you?
1:03:12C: So, um, about 1% through so far. Um, the way that I’ve sort of been thinking about doing it is I’m sort of in the first phase right now where the community, the NFT community, the Web3 community are the primary people buying the tokens. So, you know, they might buy 50, 100, 10, 20, um, any amount’s fine, any amount’s amazing. I’m super grateful for any of the support that I’m getting right now. Um, eventually what I’ll do is I’ll shift more towards, uh, looking for partners, right? So, or partners wanting to work with me in the forms of like DAOs, businesses, marketplaces, uh, Web3 platforms, etc., etc., where you know, they may say like, hey Dave, like we want to invest in you, um, as a platform, um, bring some ideas to us, you know, how about work with us on some of your ideas, how about, um, participate in a little bit of the culture with us in this. And through that idea, I believe that I’ll be able to raise like a good chunk of what,
1:04:17Maceo: uh,
1:04:18C: I’ll be looking for in the future. So, you know, if I meet with a DAO and the DAO says hey, we’re a DAO focused on blah, blah, blah, and it aligns, then I’m like, cool, let’s do it. Like, uh, I take payment in Black Dave token, right? And, and so they’ll say, okay, cool, we’ll buy 40,000, which is like 1 Ethereum, right? And I’m like, great, so let’s, let’s do something. And they, they effectively paid me 1 Ethereum for a project. But I think what’s really interesting about this is through the blockchain, you can see who who bought that $40,000. So it’s not a secret that I have this partnership. And I think that transparency is something that matters a lot to me. So if you can see who supported me and I can say publicly they supported me, it was to the tune of this much money and I did this thing, then I think it creates this like era of transparency that could possibly happen where other people are saying, oh yeah, I worked with these guys and they paid me this. You know what’s funny slash interesting? Not funny, haha funny. Interesting for sure about this is like, I think a lot about like pay inequality and how like one way to combat pay inequality is to make how much you make public. If you tell your coworkers how much money you make and everyone has a really fair understanding of what everyone at that job does, then you’ll recognize that people should be getting paid more and people should be getting paid less. And of course, there are so many things like social politics, stuff like that, that affect how much money people make. But should it? And so it’s like, if we’re doing the same work, I think that everyone should understand what they’re making. And if people are being underpaid or people being overpaid, getting closer to pay equality might come in the form of pay transparency. And so I think a lot about this in Web3 where there are projects and things like that that may sell out or may get a certain amount of press or notoriety or whatever, but they’re doing it through ways that are really hidden and behind the scenes and don’t really show what’s actually happening. And so I’m hoping to sort of create an era of transparency and showing possibility and what could happen, things like that. So that’s why I’m really excited about this as well.
1:06:32Maceo: That makes sense. That’s super dope. And you said it was a tweet initially, like, uh, my token -- no, your token -- your money, my ideas?
1:06:40C: Yes, yes, which is, which is the tagline of the website as well. Um, but the, the slide was in different colors.
1:06:47Maceo: I had that. Well, the link in show notes would definitely -- like, yeah, the link to his website would definitely be in the show notes. Uh, you guys can go support Black Dave, go buy that Black Dave token, um, and be a part of the community. We’re here.
1:06:59C: Yes.
1:07:00Maceo: Uh, I guess my, my next kind of like question is around, like you said, you found like you were using Bonfire for that. Are there any other tools, communities, um, or platforms that you find especially intriguing, engaging, or promising? I guess really promising is the question at hand.
1:07:15C: Yeah, so, you know, adjacent to Bonfire, um, I’m a huge fan of the -- there’s like a platform called Manifold, which is designed to help you mint tokens easily. Um, I think that they’re doing a lot of really great work and not asking for money from artists to use their platform, and I really enjoy that. Um, I think for people who are trying to dive in a little bit more on the tech side and build things themselves, Azora, the protocol/marketplace, is really amazing. And I think even for people who aren’t doing a lot of coding, I think they’re trying to think of ways to, to be public in how the tools can be used and built up as well. Um, I really love everybody there and like the ethos around that. Um, on the music side, I think something that’s really interesting, um, that you can attach to Bonfire if you upload an NFT -- there’s, uh, Sound, the NFT marketplace sound.xyz. Um, they have a protocol as well, and they’re building out a secondary music marketplace. And I know that if you use Sound’s protocol, which you can use through Bonfire, eventually your music will end up on their marketplace automatically. I think that’s going to be a huge thing in the future if, if Sound becomes the sort of de facto music marketplace, right? And, and so I think a lot about how powerful and useful that could be. What’s up?
1:08:41Maceo: Oh, and I was gonna say, and do you see that happening? Is that like your, like what you foresee?
1:08:47C: I think, uh, I think right now, yes. Who knows what other people are building? You know, you don’t know what people are building until you see it. But I think in terms of what’s being built and then thinking about the team over at Sound, I think that they move quickly, they move with sort of like the right intention, and they think about, um, everyone who’s using the platform more than their pockets. And so I think that there’s a big possibility that it could be. I also think Sound is just a great name for a music marketplace. And so, yeah, I think it’s totally possible. And so for me, I of course mint NFTs on Sound, but I really want to make sure that all the different types of marketplaces that come to be, my music’s able to be heard and collected the same way that I want my music on Spotify, but also on Apple Music and also on Tidal, just depending on which, which you use.
1:09:40Maceo: That makes a lot of sense. And I remember David Greenstein, one of the founders over at Sound, he was, uh, he was at FutureWave as well. I remember he was a speaker, um, and I thought that was pretty cool. It was cool to see different people there, um, who are working on projects like that are really, uh, prominent, really, yeah, really prominent in the space right now. Um, but I think some people I also hear saying they don’t necessarily want to mint their NFTs on Sound or platforms that will aggregate, like, uh, like what is it, Ooh La La and Future Tape, I believe?
1:10:11C: Yes.
1:10:12Maceo: And what’s your take on, on these aggregators?
1:10:14C: So it’s, it’s sort of a double-edged sword, I think. Um, you know, one of the inherent sort of features of the blockchain is that everything’s public, and with that means that a lot of the media that, um, you, you link to an NFT Those links are public as well, and so what’s essentially happening is like all these websites that are aggregating the music and putting it into a streaming sort of player format, they’re grabbing information that is perceived as public. And I, I don’t fully disagree with that. It is public. It’s all on chain. But on the other side of that, you know, artists believe that just because a file. a file’s link is public doesn’t mean that the use to it is public and/or the right to use it is public. And so what’s, what’s gonna happen and what is happening is that there’s gonna be a tug of war between like rights holder and tech builders, and they’re gonna try to find the right middle ground to be able to satisfy both parties. But, um, my friend Tips always says that like, uh, you’re not --
1:11:19Maceo: Shout out to Tips.
1:11:20C: Shout out to Tips, honestly. Uh, he says that a deal isn’t a good deal unless both parties are somewhat unhappy. And so because they both had to give something up. And so I think there’s going to be this middle ground that ends up being found that I haven’t -- I don’t know if I can fully see the vision of. I’m admittedly not super deep in the music rights sort of side of things, and it’s massively complicated. I think that even people who work in music rights don’t even fully understand it sometimes. I’ve heard that before. And so it’s, it’s going to be interesting to see how it all plays out. And I think even with stuff like that, when you start to look at the industry at large, the whole music industry, including like the major labels who have most of the money, they’re going to want to fight for a system that benefits them the best. And I don’t know if blockchain in its current form benefits them the best. So we’ll see how that battle goes. But I think I’m at least in this moment on the side of the tech. My personal worry is that if we move towards locking everything down too soon, we may stifle the tech. But I also understand that if we move towards enabling the tech to use our licenses too freely, we may end up not having as much control over our licenses as we should. And licensing is a lot of money for a lot of artists. So it’s really tough. It’s a tug of war, and it’s really hard to just pick one side.
1:12:50Maceo: Well, that makes sense. And what do you -- I guess I know a lot of artists are uncertain as to whether or not, like, putting their music on the blockchain, like, as an NFT, does that -- like, you have music on distribution platforms and as NFTs? No,
1:13:05C: I do, yes. And the way that I normally do this is I’ll put out an NFT and, uh, I’ll let it sell, and then the next time I drop on that same platform, I’ll put the previous song on streaming services. So I’m kind of prioritizing my Web3 and NFT fan base. Um, you know, in a lot of ways, uh, while I may see more visibility from streaming platforms, most of my money will come from my NFTs. And so I want to make sure that the people who are supporting me in that way are really getting an advantage. Um, and then I know down the line, as I grow as an artist, um, I’ll be able to play more shows for larger audiences and things like that. And maybe around that time, I’ll start to rethink the relationship between Web3 and Web2 and how -- I hate saying Web2, but Web3 and my traditional music fans and how they can -- how they interact with each other and how I value each side of it and how I interact with each side of it. But I know right now I’m placing definitely more value on the Web3 side just because I know that traditionally I don’t have a ton of fans. out in the real world. And as I build that up, it’s definitely going to be worth considering.
1:14:15Maceo: That makes sense. And do you see right now you post on Sound, um, you’re doing your token, you said, on, on, on Campfire, Bonfire?
1:14:26C: Bonfire.
1:14:28Maceo: Bonfire. And I’ve heard some artists like advocate more for making your own like mint pages as opposed to being on, uh, like Sound or Soar or something like that. Would you have a take on that?
1:14:40C: Yeah, I think, I think everything should eventually move towards your own pages. I’m a huge proponent of that. I believe that the marketplaces that exist are sort of destinations and the visibility and the perception of those destinations definitely help. But I think about it a lot like if I have a clothing brand, I want to be able to sell directly from my website, but I also think it’s fine if my clothes are in stores as well. Because if my clothes are in other stores, then there’s a chance that someone might see it at that store as opposed to knowing my website. And so I think it’s really going to be about that double-edged approach where you’re trying to make sure that your music’s visible in other places or your work in general, but you’re also trying to make sure that you have as much control of the funnel as possible. I think it’s really tough right now in Web3 because we have like a bit of a discoverability issue. For all of us to have our own websites. But I think down the line, as discoverability starts to make more and more sense and we start to find mechanisms that actually work for it, that we’ll be able to all exist in our own marketplaces. And there will be places that, you know, whether or not they aggregate the music in a streaming sort of format, the music will sort of be brought together in a way that people can at least read editorial about it. or look at reviews or whatever it might be for the work. And everyone will just be selling on their own website. And then maybe there will be like aggregate marketplaces, sort of like OpenSea already is. So I’m hoping for a future that sort of plays both sides, I think. But the ultimate goal, I think, for any creative is to be able to have people come to a place where you control, and that would be your own website.
1:16:22Maceo: Hmm. You mean you don’t want to have a Decentraland plot?
1:16:28C: I, I would love a Decentraland plot, right? That’s just another store, um, and I, I would own that plot, I guess. And so, um, yeah, I, I want -- ideally you want it all, um, but I think most -- the more control the better is kind of, I guess, the end phrase.
1:16:44Maceo: I got that. Yeah, I was making a joke, honestly.
1:16:48C: I think I’ll take a DCL plot if you’re -- so if I can get it for free.
1:16:54Maceo: No. Yeah, I think like the -- there was a lot of like real estate sold in the metaverse last year, and in my mind I’m still like confused. I’m like, what do you mean? What is Decentraland? What are we using it for?
1:17:04C: Yeah, what’s it for?
1:17:05Maceo: But yeah, I guess I want to kind of come back to the conversation around hip-hop though. Um, like how I discovered you was that you are like a rapper, um, and I’m kind of curious, you know, like how did you get into hip-hop? What’s your take on hip-hop where it’s at right now, the state of the culture? Um, and if you have any thoughts on like where it’s headed or people that are taking it, where you think it needs to go.
1:17:24C: I, um, so I got into rap music sort of through a series of jumps. I actually started making music in rock music. I started out playing in punk and hardcore bands. Um, the like second or third band I was in, we started adding like, uh, music production to it. So like I was using FL Studio, Fruity Loops at the time. And I was making some of the backing beats and stuff like that for it. And we were like adding synthesizers and blah, blah, blah. And through that, I ended up joining a band that was more of a mix of rap and rock and continuing to do that and make beats and stuff like that. And once I got into making beats, that was sort of the gateway to rapping. But it was -- there’s definitely like a many, many, many year gap between that, maybe like I would say between making beats and really rapping, like, like 6 years or so. And I started DJing in that time. I started like doing a bunch of things like focused around the culture, like from like a street culture perspective. So like, I’ve always been someone like in the street wearing sneakers and blah, blah, blah. Not always, but probably since like the middle 2000s. Mm-hmm. And And so that’s actually how I got started on rapping. I would like find beats on SoundCloud. I wasn’t like going on YouTube for type beats. I was never a type beats person, but I would find beats on SoundCloud and I would just like rap on them and like post them on like my Instagram or post them on like my SoundCloud or my website or YouTube or whatever. And, and that’s really how I got into rapping. And then a few years later, I decided to like officially start putting out music. And, um, and so that’s how I got into rapping. I think I put out my first like tape tape in like 2014, 2015. Um, it’s just a bunch of SoundCloud beats and me rapping over them with my friends. Um, poor quality recordings. It was a great time. Um,
1:19:24Maceo: and your SoundCloud’s still up?
1:19:25C: What’s up?
1:19:28Maceo: Your SoundCloud, is it still up?
1:19:30C: Yeah, of course. Yeah, yeah, for sure. Um,
1:19:32Maceo: oh really? I’ll send you a link to it. Link to Yes, it’ll be in the show notes.
1:19:35C: Um, and so that’s what I was doing for a while. And, and then I, I really, really, really was just doing it for fun for a long time, just throwing parties and had a streetwear brand, blah, blah, blah. And I think I started to decide to really start taking it seriously at the beginning of 2020, like end of 2019, leading into like the pandemic. Um, I was like, I’m -- I felt like the music I was making wasn’t resonating in the place that I lived. I was like, I’m just going to shift all of my attention to the internet. And once I started doing that, I think things started going a bit better for me. And I ended up in Web3 and NFTs and blah, blah, blah. And so that’s kind of been the journey is I was making music kind of for fun. My music wasn’t necessarily resonating with the community I was in. And then I ended up taking it to the internet and starting to find my communities there. Um, in terms of the current state of music, like rap music especially, I’m having a lot of fun seeing women do well. Um,
1:20:43Maceo: Mm-hmm.
1:20:43C: And I think in the ’90s, especially the ’90s, it was really hard for more than one woman to do well at a time in rap music, right? You always like bounce from one woman to another. in terms of like who was popping. I think we’re having a sort of era where women are doing really well. I don’t know, I don’t quite know the cause, but I think also like it’s a bit of a variety of music. It’s, you know, a lot of it is, I would say it’s the equivalent like of the rap that guys are doing, right? Mm-hmm. Like, I think you know, braggadocious rap music is amazing. So I’m not against it at all. I think too, like, we’re seeing the blog era winners make really amazing work. You know, I really enjoyed the Absol album. I really liked the Little Simz album. I really liked the Kendrick Lamar album. J. Cole’s still doing wonderfully. Schoolboy Q is doing wonderfully. You know, like all these rappers from like the early 2010s, they’re really pushing forward what things are. Childish Gambino, I’m a huge, huge, huge fan of. And I think a lot of them too are willing to explore sounds that aren’t traditionally rap. I think that’s really like -- that’s really pushing the boundaries of like how Black culture is looking at music, I think, where not everyone feels like they have to rap on the types of things that exist if they’re even rapping, right? Like, I think it’s opening up a lot of things, whether that’s doing something more melodic or doing something more traditional or doing something that’s like completely left field and using that as an opportunity to experiment and see what sound can be, as opposed to doing what sound has always been. I think -- You know, when we talked about like the sameness that the internet and especially social media creates, I think we’re sort of entering an era where a lot of unique people and unique voices are showing up. And even like looking into like a lot of the newer stuff that’s getting a lot of shine, whether it’s something like Smino or like, you know, JID or like Earth Gang or You know, even going younger to something like Tia Corinne, I think that a lot of them are finding these really unique places culturally and sonically. And I’m super excited for more and more new sonics to take place. I get really pumped about like Travis Scott, you know, like I think Astroworld production-wise was out of this world. I think -- Mm-hmm. I think the Kendrick Lamar camp does a really amazing job. I think Mr. Morale and the Big Steppers has some really great, really interesting production. I think just focusing on that as well. And I think producers are really getting their time as well. Like, I thought the Metro Boomin album was amazing. I don’t know if that’s because I’m from the South or what, but I thought it was a great album. And like, Um, even like topically, I think a lot of the music is sort of shifting. I think there’s still a lot of like trap music out there, a lot of like drug-focused, violence-focused music out there, but I think a lot of people too are finding more ways to, um, present how they feel about things and how they view things. And, um, while I’m not good at that, I do really appreciate it And so that’s -- I think that’s kind of my stance. Like, I just love, like, people trying to be more unique and more themselves and not trying to play by any rules that existed before them.
1:24:38Maceo: That makes a lot of sense. And I think something like -- I agree with you, honestly. I feel like I never thought about, like, Instagram or things like that being like something that promotes assimilation. Um, but I think that it does feel to me like people are growing beyond the need to feel like they should assimilate. Like, like the cult -- the value add, um, is that you are different. And I think a lot of people are kind of taking on authenticity and like this, and like, I don’t know really how to -- what, what to call it, but I do feel like there is a greater, like, you know, cultural representation around mindfulness, I think, in society right now, around authenticity. Mm-hmm. Um, at least like in the United States in terms of what’s popular. And I think that the United States being like a very diverse country, but, you know, it’s very segregated. I think there is a lot of like, all right, now we’re going into work. It’s time to like, you know, abide by the US professional culture or whatever it might be. I think there are a lot of ways in which we kind of promote sameness so that we can have order. And I think like order without sameness is kind of like almost unimaginable in the US because of the way that we structure ourselves so much. Um, or like self-segregate in, in so many ways. Um, but I think it is a new kind of culture. It’s a cultural shift at like the popular level. Um, yes. I think that’s exciting. That’s kind of, that’s kind of what you’re talking about. Um, and I think I agree with you. Like, I love like GloRilla, her song Tomorrow, Tomorrow Too with Cardi B. Like, I, I was telling my friends, I had like a reunion with some friends from high school, um, like this, like, uh, like last weekend Saturday, and I was telling -- I was playing Tomorrow Too in the car and I was Like, whose mom is rapping like this? Cardi B’s going off right now. And I’m a Cardi B fan. I think some people say she doesn’t write her songs, but I think it’s besides the point. I think she’s still a lit rapper. I enjoy hearing her sing, hearing her rap, all of the above. And I think it’s exciting for GloRilla to be doing the numbers she’s doing right now, starting from, I guess, the top of the summer. But then you can even see, like, I went to Rolling Loud this past fall in New York. Nicki Minaj was one of the headliners there. Um, I listen to some Rapsody now, which I didn’t listen to as much years ago. Um, I think that’s phenomenal lyricist. Doja Cat, I think, also popularizing, like, being a face, uh, I would say, of rap music as well. Like, I think when I heard Woman, I was like, damn, like, this is really a -- like, I don’t know, like, for me, I was like solidified.
1:26:56C: Yeah. Oh yeah, that song’s an anthem specifically. Yeah.
1:27:02Maceo: For a fact. Yeah, I worked at a summer camp, Kim’s like, put on Woman. I don’t know if I should have been playing that song in retrospect, but I was like, heat knows heat. Yeah, exactly. Um, but yeah, I think it’s exciting. I think, like, I think it kind of pushes, like, I think there’s so much misogyny, misogynoir that’s like allowed and enabled inside the hip-hop, um, hip-hop space, and just inside, I think, in media in general. Um, so I think having more women and their perspectives be represented in hip-hop is definitely exciting. And I think especially women that aren’t just, you know, like a performance, aren’t just a personality, but are really like a person that’s participating in the culture and taking a stance on where the culture is and where it should be, what works and what doesn’t work and stuff like that. Yeah. I love watching interviews from hip-hop artists. I love hearing what people have to say. And I think it’s important that artists really do say, you know, what they are and what they stand for and what they come from. just that they’re not just like, uh, like, like just another skin in the game, I guess, to say.
1:28:02C: Yeah, and like, they should, they should be able to -- I think what’s most exciting is that they’re able to not give a fuck and really put their perspective out there that isn’t influenced by what the industry kind of wants them to do. Um, I think with, especially with women who are artists, they probably for a while tried to figure out how to manufacture a rapper who’s a woman and then was like, wait, where are they? What are they making? Like, what are they actually making? What do they want to make? What do they want to say? And then be like, cool, let’s just let them say it and like, we’ll figure out how to market it or whatever. Who knows what’s actually happening? But that’s how I feel. And so I totally agree. And even like, I think, you know, even if we’re listening to rap from women that may be deemed toxic in whatever form, I think it’s wonderful that it’s their perspective of it. Um, so yeah,
1:28:59Maceo: perfect, perfect. Uh, shout out Megan Thee Stallion as well. Almost let her go. The, the, all the Tory stuff, uh, happening the past 2 years now. Uh, I feel like, like it’s ridiculous that I even, that I’d even, uh, fail to acknowledge her. But also a lit rapper. Um, but And maybe there’s a lot more to say about that, but that’s not -- I’m, I’m gonna digress powerfully, uh, respectfully. Do it. And I guess you also mentioned like production, and I’m really interested in what do you see -- like, like you talked about like beats being devalued to the lunar market, you know, on that. Um, do you see like NFT, like, like NFT marketplaces, uh, or NFTs, or just like blockchain, like having -- like disrupting the way that we see beats see commodified, um, distributed, um, the way the producers like, like, like monetize, the way they approach stuff? Do you see that shifting at all? Like, I’m a huge YouTube type beat guy. I don’t know if you saw J. Cole’s new song, uh, Procrastination, but like, that was on a YouTube type beat. It’s, it’s so crazy because mad people don’t even know what like a type beat is. Wow.
1:30:00C: Um, I’ll say, uh, in response to the question, like Blockchain, I think, makes payments easy, right? So we’ll be able to figure out and track payments transparently, simply, etc., etc. I think if we can figure out like a right situation as well, that’ll be great. I alluded to it earlier. I think the music industry is going to fight it tooth and nail to make sure that it doesn’t become a standard because I think there’s a lot more money in people not knowing where all their money is. For labels and large entities. But I do believe that, you know, with the saturation of any market, you eventually have to play a price game at some point. I think there will be people who don’t play the price game and they’ll play the quality game and things will be of a high price. And I’m super excited for that as well. I think that we are -- we’re going to enter a new era where value is sort of public and value is like recognized and potentially tradable in terms of producers and like having rights to music in terms of like beats and things like that. I’m really excited for that. I just, I need to think about how that model is going to look. And the hard part, I think, about looking at these models is how do you How do you create a model that works for independent artists and large artists? How does it work for artists who own everything and artists who don’t? How does it work for all these things and creating standards around it? I think one of the hardest parts about figuring out all the music-related legal things is that there are so many different types of situations you can be in as an artist, different types of money that you owe to people, whether it’s like an advancement or even a straight-up loan, or if people are entitled to a percentage of a song up to a certain point or entitled to a percentage of a song in this format but not that format, etc., etc. And so finding out how all that’s going to play out is definitely going to be a complicated process. But I think that Web3 creates an opportunity for the most -- and blockchain especially I don’t like -- I think Web3 is like a sort of a mix of all of the above. But I think blockchain especially is going to create really great automated systems for paying people that pay people, pay the artists, pay the people involved in the creation of records the most amount of money, the most transparently. And I think that’s going to be the thing that is really going to make people want to push for blockchain is that everything is transparent. And everything’s immediate. So when the money goes to the account, it automatically splits to all the people who get paid, as opposed to us having to wait 3, 6 months, a year, however long. Some people might not ever get paid from some of those songs. You hear every so often about artists suing labels and publishers because they’re not getting the money that they were promised. And so I think that we are getting a lot closer to that. And I think blockchain is going to enable that in a really big way. Who knows how long it’ll take, but I’m here for it.
1:33:16Maceo: Yeah, I got that. And I agree with you, I think it’s exciting. I definitely like what you said about the transparency, um, and like immediacy, I think are 2 huge things for me as well. The idea that I can, you know, like, like mint this NFT and that someone can buy it and now I have like 0.2 ETH in my wallet just immediately. Um, like, it doesn’t -- like, it’s like a shift of mindset, you know, that this is how things work. Um, so I think it’s, I think it’s It’s really cool. And I guess the last place I really want to take this, this conversation is into the name of the podcast. This is the We Them Niggas podcast. And so I’m really interested, like, like Black -- your name is Black Dave. Like, what’s your relationship like to being a Black man in 2023? And yeah, what do you have to say to Black men? I guess that’s maybe that’s a big question, but that’s kind of what I’m interested in.
1:34:05C: Um, something I think a lot about, especially because like we were talking about like Black nerdiness and Black anime fandom, and like, you know, I came up skateboarding and playing in punk hardcore bands and a lot of things that like weren’t stereotypically Black. Um, it’s kind of -- it’s even -- that even plays into why my name’s Black Dave, because I come from a place with a bunch of white people and I was the only Black one named Dave. I think for me, it’s like -- and then if you add living in Charleston, which is like the largest slave importer in America at the time of slavery, a lot of like my perspective is sort of informed by those factors, right? Looking at people whose grandparents were there for segregation, looking at people who like remember whose grandparents might remember their grandparents or great-grandparents like in some form of slavery, Jim Crow, etc., etc., like really having an impact on the South. Even like me myself having like run-ins with like hate groups and stuff like that. Like, I think it’s interesting because as much as you want to live in a world that’s truly equal, it’s also so, so important to like remember and own and sort of present like whatever culture, race, ethnicity, etc., etc., that you are. Because I think like those stories need to be remembered and don’t need to go away. I think, though, on the other side of that, that you should just do and be whoever you want to be. I think what happens a lot of times is we fall into the idea of what different, different races should do and should be. But we should really just try to be like the highest version of ourselves and what we want to be to the world. And so I think something that I might want to posit to Black men, Black people around the world is just like, Go super hard on whatever the fuck you want to do and whatever you want to be, and don’t let your race be a hindrance to that. Um, or at least don’t let people’s perception of, of our race be a hindrance to that. Um, and that’s really the way to go about life from my perspective.
1:36:34Maceo: Wow. No, I appreciate that. And yeah, you know, I can’t emphasize that enough. I think going super hard for what you want and not letting that be like what people think of you, which I think is really easy. I feel like we’re all kind of frequently playing into like how we think other people think about us. At least I know I’m a very self-conscious person and it’s something I’ve been working on for the past few years is trying to like give myself more space to just be without all my invasive or intrusive thoughts, you know, taking hold and kind of determining, you know, what world I’m living in. Uh, so yeah, I definitely, I definitely fucking love that. Uh, yeah, I guess I cursed. I said, oh well. But, uh, well,
1:37:16C: then I guess -- I’ve been cursing. Yeah,
1:37:18Maceo: I can’t take it too seriously. And I guess like I’m also interested in like, what do you -- like the, the word nigga, I’ve gotten some feedback that shouldn’t be the name of my podcast. So I’m kind of holding myself accountable for inviting people to kind of speak on that word in their relationship. to it as well. Uh, your name is Black Dave, not Nigga Dave, you know. Uh, and I don’t know what I even say that to say, but it crossed my mind, so I said it. Um, but yeah, what are your thoughts on the, on the word nigga, on it being in the name of my podcast? Uh, yeah, I’m just curious, what are your thoughts on, on what I’m trying to do with it? Um, and maybe even what your impression is of what I’m trying to do with it.
1:37:55C: First of all, I love the word nigga so much. Like, I love the word nigga so much. Truly. Even like to the point where in my music, a lot of the screaming parts of my songs, I try to say nigga in them because I think that there’s something about like thinking about like heavy rock music and how that genre is such a like quote unquote white genre of music, like being able to put nigga in that and be like, no, like I’m here too. You know, I feel like You know, nigga, a lot of people have different feelings on it. Um, they feel like nigga is a word that continues to hold Black people down, but I really think the reclamation of the word nigga creates this really, uh, really cool way that we can own something, right? And I know that it’s like the, the roots of it are terrible and the way that people use it is often terrible, but I think the idea of being able to own something culturally is, is really amazing. I would hope that You know, we continue to find more and more things to own culturally. But that being on the list, and I think that being the most accessible version is really cool to me. I think that, you know, reclamation in general is really powerful for communities where they take the things that like have harmed them and turn them into things that empower them. And I think Black people being able to say nigga in this, in this new format, in this new form, is really great. Obviously, there are people who disagree. I don’t, I don’t care. I just do what I want to do, which is what I just said. But, um, but I, I’m into it. I think, you know, the more, the more that people have to -- all people have to interact with these types of words that, um, that have this cultural meaning and that have like these rules around it, um, Mmhmm. I think it’s important. I think people need to find ways to exist with the word nigga, even if they can’t say the word nigga, right? So it’s like, how do you approach that subject? How do you approach that word? How do you approach that meaning? How do you approach these things without being a part of that culture? And we do it with so many other cultures. Why can’t you just add this to the list of cultures that you’re making a point to respect? Is it Is it because we’re also American? Is it because you devalue Black folks? Is it because this or that? And so to me, I think about it a lot as like a, you know, Black culture. I think I love that we’ve taken the opportunity to reclaim that word and, you know, however other people interpret that is fine. And then I think on the other end of that, I think it’s really important for other cultures to respect that reclamation culturally and just deal with it in however and hopefully the best ways that they can find. And the name doesn’t bother me at all. I’m cool with it. I think the name’s fire.
1:40:56Maceo: I appreciate that, man. I appreciate that. And yeah, I think like the reclamation is definitely like, yeah, I love the word nigga as well. I feel like it’s a huge part part of how, like, I identify in the world. Like, I feel like -- I like when YNW Melly, he sings sometimes, it’s a young nigga world. And I’m like, oh, I like that. Like, I think that kind of goes back to what you were saying around, like, anime and, like, the idea that children can change the world, have an impact on it. It’s like the --
1:41:23C: Mm-hmm.
1:41:24Maceo: Like, I feel like YNW Melly is pushing the narrative that young Black men can have an impact on the world in spite of what maybe their everyday, like, life might be telling them. And I think it’s just -- and what?
1:41:35C: And young nigga, like the word phrase young nigga means something. Like when you say, oh, that’s just a young nigga, like that means something, but it really only means something within the specific cultural context. And so like, that’s why I love the word nigga is because I feel like, you know, I can be like, don’t be a nigga right now, and that has a meaning. Or I could be like, you know, young niggas It’s like there’s so many ways that culturally the word means something within the culture. That’s why I think it’s such a fire word. Like, I think it’s, it’s so versatile. Um, yeah, sorry for interrupting.
1:42:08Maceo: No, you’re, you’re all good. And I mean, I think, I think the point you made is, is, is superb. Like, I think there are so many uses, and that’s kind of like, for me, what I’m saying, this is like the We Them Niggas podcast. This is the maybe one day a We Them Niggas app, We Them Niggas game. I don’t, I don’t know what the fuck is to come. Um, the We Them Niggas NFT. But the, the idea is that like we are those niggas, like we are these people doing this thing. Um, so I don’t really see like, like, like I think the inflection is like it’s, it’s culture, it’s, it’s culture, like I guess relevant. And so if, if like the people in relationship to the word nigga specifically using it are Black people Um, but I think like, like everything, like the, the race of people, the whole, the world history could all be swapped, you know, and nigga would still make reference to people in this particular situation. Um, and that’s kind of something that I feel exciting. It’s kind of like a declaration around our situation is that like inside the situation, we are the people like that we’re choosing to be. Uh, and I think that kind of goes back, like I said, to like the anime, like kids can change the world. Like that’s something that’s exciting to me is the idea that, you know, You know, young niggas can change the world. That’s what I am right now. That’s where I am right now. And every day I’m thinking, you know, what can bring me closer to the life that I want to have for myself, for my family, for people that I care about? And it’s also a declaration, you know, like in this space, you know, a space that is like mostly white people, white men, like the crypto tech space. It’s like, all right, but we’re here too. Like, and I am that we have a space here. Like, we’re not just here as individuals, like here and there as token Black people. Like, we are here. The culture is here. Like, we aren’t like individuals, like, like caught in white space. Like, we are Black space established in the tech space. Mm-hmm. And I think that’s a really exciting premise. And even like seeing, like, I don’t know if you keep up with Earn Your Leisure, but they’ve been posting content about how they’re taking the culture to the, to the World Economic Forum because that’s where they’re headed out to this, this week. And I think it’s exciting, you know, to be declaring that, you know, we’re going to make sure that we’re represented in spaces. where decisions are being made that impact people. Like, we are -- that we are in rooms where, like, significant and powerful choices are being made and that we have a say in where things are headed. And things being like the society, the world, our future, really, where our lives are headed. So yeah, I mean, I guess that was a bit of a spiel, but for me, that’s what it is. And I appreciate that you appreciate not only the word’s, like, many uses, but, like, its significance culturally. Mm-hmm. And like that, you see it, it is worth getting people to reexamine, you know, their relationship to it and how can they make space for the word nigga and even just like Black culture, Black people in their lives. You know, some people can’t make space for the word. They don’t say the word, but then they make no space for Black people in their lives. And they go around acting like they are like the end-all be-all of a good white person. And I’m like, I don’t really know if you’re really like -- for me, you’re just like a white person existing in a white world. Like, that’s great. Um, but there’s nothing special about it because you don’t say the N-word. You might as well be going around every day saying the N-word. Uh, like, as far as I’m concerned, like, you’re not actually doing anything, like, with your body, with your life, to contribute to Black people. You’ll never run into a person upset. Mm-hmm.
1:45:16C: So that’s -- it’s -- that’s interesting. That’s -- that’s good.
1:45:20Maceo: Yeah, but yeah, that’s -- that’s, uh, that’s what’s in my space around that. I appreciate you letting me take the conversation there. Of
1:45:30C: course.
1:45:30Maceo: And I know that you said like you grew up in Charleston. I’m curious, like, like you said, it’s mostly a white place and you’re there with your family. I assume your family’s like Black people. So I’m curious, like, what do, what do you take from the Black, like your family? Like, who are people in your family that have inspired you, left an impact on you? Like, how does Blackness leave a legacy in the way that you approach your family life and like, like who you are? Despite it not really being like the world you’re inside of, like out in the public sphere?
1:45:59C: So like, first of all, my family’s fire and I live with them even now. But something that for me that they did or that sort of was just like my situation was I was never in the hood. So like they got us out the hood before I was born. or at least could remember. And so I always lived sort of in the quote-unquote rich part of town. I lived in a Black neighborhood, but it -- that’s where I lived. But like something that I think especially like my mom kind of put in us was like, just do whatever you want to do. And so that’s always been the thing for me. And always -- and she’s always just like supported what I wanted to do, whether it’s like Um, you know, in elementary school I played soccer a lot, uh, running track, um, being in like the gifted and talented programs, stuff like that. Um,
1:47:02Maceo: Mm-hmm.
1:47:03C: So all that was cool. Skateboarding, just all the different things that I wanted to do, playing in bands, blah blah. And so, um, in like the second half of elementary school for me, I moved with my grandma who’s like a bit more traditional. Obviously she’s older. And she was like overemphasizing this value on school and like education and blah, blah, blah. Like I was part of these programs, like I would go to these special schools for smart kids and blah, blah, blah. And it was cool, but it wasn’t like resonating with what I wanted to do in life. You know, I, at the time I just wanted to make video games, but that like wasn’t like a real job to a grandma. You know what I’m saying? Nowadays you can, your job can be to play video games. Yeah. You don’t even have to make them. You should just be the person who plays them. But like, and then I moved back with my mom and like kind of got back into that, like, be what you want to be zone. And so for me and my family in specific, I think they really continue to push that for me and for all of us. I have 2 sisters and I think we all have like varying degrees of influence by like living in both places and living with both. Like whether it’s my grandma or my mom. And so it’s been interesting, but we’re all super close. We’re all super tight. We all like chat super regularly, see each other regularly, et cetera, et cetera. And so I would say that’s kind of the thing, not feeling limited. And like, I think early on all of us knew how to exist in white spaces. I think it’s, it’s, um, I definitely, you know, code switch much less, but, uh, just knowing how to do that is a skill in itself.
1:48:55Maceo: And, um -- You’re saying code switch less as compared to when?
1:48:59C: Uh, compared to like other folks, I guess. Like, uh, compared to myself earlier in life where I would like try to be impressive to white people or whatever. It’s like, no, I’m just going to be myself. And the version of me that you get is the real version of me. You know, Jay-Z says something like, you know, I know I made it when I can go into a room and not have to change how I talk, or I can go into a room wearing whatever I want. And so that’s kind of like how I feel is like, how can I exist in the world being the person that I am and not conforming to the person I wanted to be. I remember, like, um, I, I, I’m into photography now, but, like, I applied for a job at this, like, camera store. And, um, and, like, my name is Dave, you know, so it’s like, oh cool, Dave. You call me on the phone, I talk like this, you’re like, oh, it might be a white person. And then I got there and they were, like, shocked that I was Black, you know. And I didn’t get the job, but, um, just like that sort of thing where like instead of being mad that, um, I didn’t get the job, I’m like happy that I decided to show up as myself, you know? And I think doing that is, is like kind of the vibe. So yeah.
1:50:17Maceo: No, I like that. And I think it’s important because I think when your focus is on like impressing white people or not, and, or like trying to fit in then you end up in spaces where like you can get yourself to fit in, not places where you’re embraced for being yourself. And you can spend your life like looking for one or looking for the other, but you can’t be in both at the same time. Absolutely. And for me, that’s a lot about what like this, the We Them Nickas vision is. It’s about like making it so that people can choose to be in the spaces where they get to be themselves, will be embraced to be themselves, as opposed to feeling like they have to go and find a job in a space where they maybe are making concessions every day to assimilate or to Um, perform a certain kind of way or to present a certain kind of way. You know, I think in the -- in an ideal world, we’re not -- we’re not like -- we’re always performing, um, but we’re not -- we’re not presenting ourselves in ways which leave us feeling we’re making concessions.
1:51:04C: And that’s draining too, like, to -- to have to present. Like, it’s like, oh my God, like, I went to work and I had to do this all day and I had to do that all day, and it’s like, oh, I’m so tired because I just had to, like, act all day and acting is an action, right? Like, and so the closer you can get to just being yourself everywhere you go, I feel like the smoother you can move through life. It’s kind of like, it’s kind of like why being like a rapper or an entertainer or whatever, like, is so great is because it’s like, okay, I just need to be myself and then create things around that. Okay. Yeah, let’s do that. Let’s do that. I like that idea. Because for as tiring as it is, as tiring as the work is, the work is not for me to be tired all the time by trying to present as something that I’m not. Like, even when I was talking earlier about how, like, I’m really bad at writing introspective music, it’s just like, cool, I just won’t write it. I just won’t write it. It’s fine. You know, like, I can do that, you know? And if there are people who feel like I’m not a good rapper because I can’t tell a story well or because I can’t talk about how I feel well, that’s fine, that’s cool. I’m gonna be me and I feel good being me. So yeah.
1:52:17Maceo: Yeah, I appreciate that. We want you to feel good first and foremost, uh, and it being you, being you are the conditions for that. But I think that’s, that’s, that’s, that’s alignment. That’s where we should be. I bought this Ethereum address, wethemniggas.eth, the, like, the name for this, I guess, uh, content piece I’ll be doing under the We Them Niggas podcast banner. And I bought the address in 2021 when my friend Drew was telling me about ETH addresses, kind of getting me into crypto. And I did that with the aspiration of at some point being able to feel knowledgeable enough to speak on the evolving technology ecosystem that is blockchain and its impact on industries and society at large. And I feel like this is, this is really that. This episode was that. So really, thank you for being the person that’s helped me bring that to life, Dave. I really appreciate that and you being here. And letting everybody know, you know, if you, if you got value from listening to this episode, I’d love it if you could get -- if you could support me by sharing this with a friend who might be interested, following me on socials, listening to my next episode, dropping me an NFT or some coin at my ETH address. I really appreciate you all. Um, go be great, and most importantly, go take care of yourselves. Uh, do you have anything you want to say as a goodbye, Dave, or you want to shout out your socials? So anything?
1:53:35C: Yeah, um, easy -- most easy, I guess, way to find me is to head to blackdave.xyz in your browser and you’ll see a bunch of social media buttons there. Um, thanks for having me. This has been a, like, wonderful convo. Um, I’m totally down to do it again sometime in the future. Um,
1:53:55Maceo: I love that.
1:53:55C: Yeah, I think that’d be -- could be cool, especially like As, as we both progress more. Um, yeah, everybody listening, just, just go out and like enjoy yourself and be yourself. Um, thanks again.
1:54:09Maceo: Yeah, thank you. Yeah, so go check out blackdate.xyz, um, and we’ll catch you guys on the flip. Have a great one.
