An episode of We Them, the podcast Maceo started in college, where We Them Media began. It was published as audio only. This page carries its full transcript so the words can be read, searched and quoted. It is not a written piece. Listen to it where it was published.
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0:00Maceo: Hello everyone, welcome to the We Them Niggas podcast once again. Uh, today I’m here, Masea Watley, with my friend Phil Chen. He’s, uh, at F&M this year with me. We’re graduating. We’ve been friends since my freshman year, and I’m excited that he wanted to come on here and have a conversation with me today. I really appreciate it. I think he’s got a lot to offer the world in terms of his perspective, and I’m excited that he decided we were people with whom it was worthwhile to share that perspective. So yeah,
0:28Phil Chin: yeah,
0:28Maceo: you wanna introduce yourself, Phil?
0:29Phil Chin: Yeah, Maseo, thank you for having me on. My name is Phil Chin. I’m from New York City. I’m an econ-English double major, and yeah, I’ll be graduating Maseo at the end of May.
0:40Maceo: And
0:41Phil Chin: yeah, I’m -- these 4 years have been amazing, man, with you. Yeah. So yeah, shall we jump right into it, or --
0:49Maceo: I mean, yes. Well, tell us about your econ and English major. Tell us about that. Why is that what you chose to spend your time at this college studying?
0:58Phil Chin: So originally, what I wanted to do was be a bio major, but then I realized it really wasn’t for me. It didn’t really suit my skill sets. And so my dad, he worked in finance, so I thought I had some grip on economics. I thought I could get into it, but I always really liked English, so I decided when I was sophomore that I would do an English major and a minor in -- I’m sorry, an economics major and a minor in English. But then I realized last semester that I actually wanted to finish my English major. So I’m spending this semester here now, you know, finishing up. And yeah, that’s how I came about it. So yeah, I’m much more passionate about English, I must say, than economics. But
1:45Maceo: have you considered getting your MFA?
1:46Phil Chin: Actually, yeah, I really have. Um, I also want to go to law school, but I don’t know whether I want to do it before or after I get my MFA. Um, but yeah,
1:59Maceo: for people as well,
2:00Phil Chin: uh, so that’s basically -- I, I don’t know what it means exactly, uh, in terms of like what it
2:03Maceo: stands for,
2:04Phil Chin: but it’s basically your master’s in English, and you can master in anything from like fiction to, you know, autobiographies, poetry. things like that. Um, so you’re basically just essentially mastering in, um, one field of English or literary studies. So yeah, um,
2:22Maceo: that makes sense. I was making sure that my microphone is recording because I don’t see anything, but it seems like it is, so that’s good.
2:29Phil Chin: All right, yeah.
2:31Maceo: But so this is the We Them Niggas podcast. Uh, so before we jump into anything else, like, the -- a big part of that is discussing what the N-word means to people, what the word nigga means to you, how you think about it, how you think about it in society. For me, I wanted to call it Eat Them Niggas Podcast because I feel like it can be like a call to action in some ways. I like the notion when I hear people say like, I’m that nigga, in rap songs. Like YBN Nami is someone I think of all the time. He says that on one of his first songs that I ever heard. I can’t think of the name of it right now, but I think it struck me. I was like, oh, I like that notion. And I feel like I’ve been in some ways self-centered, like always, you know, throughout different parts of my life. Yeah. And so I feel like thinking about intentionally how to decenter myself, We Them Niggas is like a way to think about a larger culture and like how I can look for who’s out there in the world being that nigga in my eyes, like not just me, you know, and how I’m doing it, but like who are people that I can say are modeling behavior that I think is really, I don’t know, impressive, I guess, is really like what it comes down to. And that I think we should highlight. And also just like, who are people out here, you know, and what do they think is important? I think activism is always cool. I think we can choose to be active, we can choose to be passive, and when we choose to be active, I think sometimes it’s for the betterment of the experience of other people, even if we never actually get to tangibly experience that benefit ourselves. I think like when we get like dopamine from that though, it’s like the -- that’s us being aware of it to some extent. So I think like, who are people that want to come on here and talk about important things as well? And like, how can I highlight them and give them a platform to share what they think is important, share what we think is important actually, because I think it’s important for people to be able to say what they think. So I appreciate you being here for that reason, but that’s where I kind of want to start. Like, what do you think of the word nigga? Uh, what’s that like? You’re from New York, so you’ve been around it presumably.
4:14Phil Chin: Yeah, I have been around the N-word a lot, but what I think I’ll say is just like the etymology of the N-word, um, just where it comes from, its history, it’s history of dehumanization. In my personal opinion, I cannot go about unpacking and changing the word myself considering that I am -- Yeah, that’s fine. Yeah, uh, I personally don’t like the word, um, but I’m not going to criticize -- well, obviously someone like you, or I’ll call out racists when they say it, obviously, but I’m not going to call someone like you for using the word or trying to change it because, you know, I think that’s a noble goal. I also like how you talked about, you know, just finding people who inspire you, who are good models for you. I think that’s what we need to do in the world, just inspire each other, you know, be those big -- be those awesome people to each other, you know. So yeah, I hope that answers your question. That makes sense.
5:06Maceo: Yeah, but I mean, I still like, like a little bit more of like, like you said, you have been around the word a lot. Like, talk to us about that. Like, what is that word like in your experience? Where do you see it? Where don’t you see it? You say you don’t like the word even, like, unpack that a little bit more if you don’t mind.
5:21Phil Chin: Okay, um, well, here’s the thing. I went to a small private school in New York City that was 97% white. So really where I heard the word was generally in, well, music, which honestly I thought was a little bit problematic. And not because the music itself, mainly just the idea that like, this idea of, well, just us non-Black people basically profiting off of Black culture in a way. Now, Sure, maybe just if you think about it abstractly, it doesn’t seem too bad, but it does feel a bit uncomfortable considering how Black culture has, you know, historically been appropriated by white people. Yeah. We could talk about like starting with jazz and, you know, blues and obviously rap nowadays too. So basically that’s my encounter with it. Obviously, you know, I’ve met -- there’s a lot of people, you meet a lot of different people in New York City, so obviously I’ve heard people say it, but where I mostly heard it is through music. And that actually shows a big problem in the division of New York City and how it’s segregated. Not legally, obviously, but this might sound controversial as an opinion, but New York City is very divided by race, not because of the people. It’s not because like people decide, you know, I’m gonna segregate myself. It’s because of the infrastructure that’s been put in place. It’s because of just the historic racism that has been around. Can
6:46Maceo: you talk more about the infrastructure? Like, when you say that, what do you mean?
6:49Phil Chin: So yeah, if you take a look at a map of like New York City public transportation, you know.
6:55Maceo: So first, can you define infrastructure?
6:57Phil Chin: Okay, yeah, um, sorry. So I was thinking here was like in terms of roads, in terms of -- so, so not, so not like, so like literal infrastructure, roads, public transportation, public amenities, things along those lines. I think the best example of this that I, I like to point to is how you see public transportation is structured in the city. So what you see, like, you start with Manhattan, you know, obviously that’s where the city started. You see basically, you know, trains, subways. And if you look at like a map of the New York City subway system, you see trains going north-south, east-west, you know, a lot of crisscrosses. It’s a mess of spaghetti. All right, but when you get to the Bronx, Queens, Brooklyn, you see those trains like be separate. They’re like separate pieces of spaghetti, if that makes any sense. You’ll see one train that cuts across these other trains, like these other trains as well. And so basically it just makes things a lot harder to get around in those places, in the Bronx and Brooklyn and Queens. So they -- so obviously that slows down business, that makes it more inconvenient convenient for people. So you might ask, well, that doesn’t sound inherently racist, but you have to consider who are the people living in the Bronx, Queens, Brooklyn? Who are the people living in Upper Manhattan? They aren’t white people, generally speaking. Well, there are, obviously, but it’s not -- these are people of color who are living there.
8:32Maceo: Yeah.
8:32Phil Chin: So yeah, so that is what I want to talk about, the racism in New York City, how it became segregated like that. There’s a lot more to go on, but this is, I think, is just the best example I can give.
8:42Maceo: Oh no, and I appreciate you taking time to give it.
8:44Phil Chin: Yeah, yeah, definitely. So yeah, um, now back to -- now if we’re gonna talk about the history of the N-word and why I don’t like it myself.
8:52Maceo: Yeah,
8:53Phil Chin: I think it all starts -- it all started with me, um, like learning about, you know, the Civil War in American history. And if you’re gonna learn about the Civil War, you have to learn about basically the beginning of the country and the not just the antebellum period, but also how slavery has affected America today and obviously the time before. I think when you see American chattel slavery -- American slavery was called chattel slavery. Basically, that meant that generations upon generations of a certain group of people would be slaves. This is what you see in America. This is something that you Well, I’m gonna say this. I need to say this right. All slavery everywhere is horrible. It is dehumanizing. But this was on another level in America, um, how you saw it, you know. And what --
9:49Maceo: What, like, what’s it like? What distinguished it when you say it’s on another level?
9:52Phil Chin: So basically, like, if you take a look at indentured servitude in America, those were -- again, that was horrible in itself, but those ended. Those were contracts that were like lasted 7 years or so. Slavery in other places around the world, at least to my knowledge, I can’t really speak to it completely, was that these would be prisoners of war and they’d obviously be brought back. But when it comes to American chattel slavery, I think what you have to consider is that you don’t see -- well, if you ever wonder why so many other countries started abolishing slavery before the United States, a lot of it was because it was not as profitable to have -- sorry, it wasn’t profitable to have the slavery institution around. That is a very, very, very cold way of putting it, and I don’t like putting it that way, but the point is that the slave-owning classes in those places lost power and those who were speaking out against slavery were able to gain even more power. This is what happened in the United States when you had the division between North and South. Just to be clear though, the North wasn’t that great when it came to race relations. They themselves were white supremacists. The reasons they were against slavery was because --
11:23Maceo: It had to do with labor, right? They wanted more labor. In the workforce in the North?
11:27Phil Chin: Yeah, well, there’s a few things to consider here, is that you have to consider the type of crops that were grown in the North versus the South. Obviously, when we talk about the South, we talk about cotton and tobacco. Those are, well, were profitable back then for slavery. But in the North, what you see is, well, you get more foodstuff, so to speak, like I don’t want to say anything wrong on this podcast.
11:56Maceo: You can throw stuff out. But
11:58Phil Chin: yeah, you -- I would think like basically how New York and the Mid-Atlantic region was called the breadbasket of America. So you’d be seeing things like wheat. I don’t know if wheat was grown exactly, but things like that, cereals. So basically across the North you have these like farms that grow food. All right, in the South you see plantations that grow cash crops. If you’re -- if you are -- so apparently, hate to say this again in this cold way, but if you are only growing food, you would not want to use slave labor for that because it’s just not profitable. That is extremely cold of putting it, but I think I want to point out is that --
12:36Maceo: It would be impractical, is what you’re saying.
12:38Phil Chin: Yes, being practical. What I want to point out is that, um, you know, it wasn’t just that Northern people were more benevolent. In fact, I would say It was much a cultural divide. However, because of that divide between the agriculture of the North and the South, and also you have to consider the North was industrializing much faster, they had factories and whatnot. It’s weird, industrialization both accelerated -- well, actually expanded slavery, but also accelerated its end. It’s very weird, but that’s a topic for another time. But the fact is that the fact that the North wasn’t suited for slavery, it meant that a very small minority of abolitionists can grow. And that’s where the abolitionist movement starts. It starts within obviously the North, like New England. New England was basically -- well, was it New England? I believe it was just New England and North. By the time of the Civil War, probably way before that, every single northern state had abolished slavery, and a lot of it was just the combination of both the materialistic conditions and also the abolitionist movements. So yeah, those were differences that you see there. So that’s why you have this split, again, these large plantations in the South, this slavery, the institution of slavery continuing And so how I relate that to the n-word is that the n-word was meant to dehumanize -- it was meant to dehumanize slaves, and it was meant to dehumanize Black people in general. All right, so how I -- learning that, you know, how it is a word of dehumanization. Yeah, I want to -- I
14:29Maceo: even like a justification, like, yes, they’re naked, like, this makes it appropriate.
14:33Phil Chin: Yes, exactly. So basically It takes away one’s agency, one’s humanity. To me, that’s how I see it if I said it. So that is why I do not like the word. I will not say the word, but I can understand though wanting to take that word back and trying to reform into something else.
14:51Maceo: Yeah, I appreciate you going to that depth because I think that’s like, uh, like even more, I feel like, nuanced than my own perspective on the word. Yeah, so I guess that’s an exciting thing about as well about this podcast that I guess Maybe we get to also learn from each other more. I get to learn from people like yourself really about what else there is for me to learn. Yeah. When it comes to the history of Black people in this country. You know, it’s something I’m really not familiar with. Like, I’m taking my first African American lit class this semester with Professor Bernard.
15:16Phil Chin: Yeah, good professor.
15:18Maceo: Phenomenal professor, dude. I think it’s, it’s a real blessing to be able to take class with him. This is the only class I’ve taken that’s really focused on like, like the Black perspective, the Black experience of being in college. And so I’m excited to, after school, spend more time like doing a deep dive into that because I feel like majoring in moral psychology has definitely helped me to think about how I conceive what it is to be a person and like based on that, what kind of questions -- what kinds of questions I have about people, what I think there is to get to know when you’re meeting people, but also like just what there is to each person that like -- I guess when it comes to like what there is to care about, like I feel like my experience is particular because I am Black. Because I am a man, because I am gonna have a college degree in 2 weeks. I think like those are just examples, but those things are important. Like, I’m a -- I don’t believe in God. That’s like a part of who I am as well. Mm-hmm. And I think like something I’m interested in, it’s something I guess we were looking at in class actually this past week. We were reading -- we’re reading The Color Purple right now, and like in that book, writing and learning and teaching is like very central. because the protagonist Celie is taught by these different women throughout the story. Like, you have Shug and you have her sister as well, Nettie. And her sister teaches her to read, and she writes letters to God throughout the story and she writes letters to her sister as well. But Professor Bernard was talking about how, like, their knowing how to write and being able to -- like, you see the character development through the writing in the story. I think he was saying it also speaks to, like, people whom are forced to be illiterate or not allowed like education and literacy are kind of implicitly in like -- maybe not implicitly actually, but I, I would have to think, I can’t imagine that they’re not in, in a world with like where things are more chaotic or less like harder to make sense of as well. Like you have things you’re upset about, but I can’t imagine it’s easy to put your fingers on how you feel. Like even our like present like conceptions around emotions and how we feel and like depression, anxiety, I feel like are fairly abstract, at least in like everyday terms, in terms of what everyday people think about. And so I can’t imagine like not even being literate and being able to, with language, like, I don’t know, like fully flesh out how we feel about certain things, just like having a more limited vocabulary. I’d say that’s something I’m really grateful about is my vocabulary. I feel like it helps me to think like with more clarity, I guess. In some ways, but I feel like it’s just like, I don’t know, maybe it’s not actually true. That’s what I tell myself. But I think despite that, something that I think is important is kind of getting a better sense of like the, the overall present conditions of Black people in the world. Like what’s actually the state of racial progress in the world. Yes. You’re talking about the South versus the North, and I mean, I hear what you’re saying about like the, that twofold thing of like it being impractical to have slaves in the North and but they still want people to come and work at like a reasonable rate. And also there being abolitionist movements, like I think like the multiplicity of perspectives and motivations driving that I think is also interesting and reflective of people not actually being where you might like to think they are. Even like you’re talking about in the city where segregation exists, like I think F&M is definitely a bubble. I think there’s people here for whom like I say this is the most diverse place they’ve been a part of. And I think like if this is the most diverse place you’ve been a part of and the world is like dramatically more diverse than this school, then like everywhere you’ve been to some extent has been a bubble.
18:39Phil Chin: Yeah.
18:39Maceo: I think that’s kind of dangerous to only be exposed to certain parts of society and certain like -- because I think your view of the rest of the world can kind of not be as fleshed out as you might like to think it is.
18:50Phil Chin: Yeah.
18:50Maceo: Because it’s based on assumptions, or it’s just like it’s not based on -- it’s like hearsay almost.
18:54Phil Chin: Yeah.
18:55Maceo: I think it’s like, I don’t know, doing yourself a disservice to not go out there and explore the world. So I guess this is me, I guess, also trying to bring the world into some little place as well. Maybe, who knows?
19:06Phil Chin: Yeah. Yeah, definitely. The world’s awesome, but it also can kind of suck sometimes. But you should definitely -- there’s so much to learn out in the world. You’re doing yourself a disservice by not trying to go out and learn about everything you can. So yeah. Yeah. Yeah, gotta get away from that bubble, basically. Yeah.
19:24Maceo: You just want to see things for how they are, I think. Yeah, to the best of your ability.
19:28Phil Chin: Yeah, that’s what I do. But you know, um, hell, I get things wrong about what I believe in myself all the time. So, you know, but that’s a good thing, I think, especially challenging your own beliefs constantly. So that’s what I try to do all the time. So yeah,
19:42Maceo: me too. Philosophy guy. Yeah, why, why, why? Yeah, but yeah, you also wanted to talk today, you were saying, about Imperialism?
19:52Phil Chin: Yeah, I want to talk about imperialism and colonialism in the modern day. So what I know best is the Americas and how imperialism has happened in the Americas since, you know, in the modern day. Obviously a lot of this applies to the rest of the world, but this is just the more specifics that I understand it. So if we’re gonna talk about imperialism in the Americas, I think we should also understand how we got here first. So I’m going to just summarize this really briefly. So back during the Monroe administration in the 19th century, he created something called the Monroe Doctrine. So that basically just said that no European powers can have any more colonial ventures in the Americas. So that basically meant that the US would be basically protectorate over the entire hemisphere. So yeah, so what that really meant was that the United States became unimpeded in its own imperialism into Latin America, Central America, and obviously South America. So what we started seeing in the 19th century is American corporations setting up plantations within Latin America, so like Nicaragua, Guatemala, Costa Rica, Cuba even. So this also applies to the Caribbean as well. So you see them setting up these plantations to grow things like -- to grow fruit, especially bananas. Bananas were very profitable in terms of growing them and exporting them and then selling them in the United States.
21:35Maceo: It’s like, why are you talking about this?
21:37Phil Chin: So I’m talking about this is to just set the scene for why -- how we got here.
21:42Maceo: Well, yeah, but I mean, why are you talking about imperialism and colonialism?
21:45Phil Chin: I think it’s just important to understand that imperialism and colonialism isn’t an artifact of the past. It is something that’s still affecting us now. And I am -- I believe, in my opinion, that the world that we -- the lives we live here in America, you know, at least the benefits that we have, the reason why America is so rich is based off this own imperialism. here. So, so yeah, if that makes sense, I think this is something that we have to talk about.
22:15Maceo: Yeah. Um, well, this is the place to do it.
22:19Phil Chin: Yeah. So, so these were the banana republics, you know, growing bananas.
22:24Maceo: Can you start this part over as well?
22:26Phil Chin: Um, yeah, so the Monroe Doctrine, which allowed -- well, it didn’t explicitly, but it basically did effectively allow for American imperialism unimpeded into Latin America and the Americas in general. So what happened was that, to oversimplify things massively, was
22:52Maceo: that -- Why do you want to oversimplify it massively?
22:55Phil Chin: Because I don’t actually know all the details myself. So basically what I’m saying right now is already an oversimplification. So I don’t want to pretend that I’m an expert. Okay, this is the whole story.
23:07Maceo: That’s fine. Then just say you’re not an expert and say what you know versus saying like, this is --
23:10Phil Chin: yeah, I am not an expert. This is essentially an oversimplification, everything I’m saying. So yeah, but this is saying you need
23:20Maceo: to say that. I’m saying you could just say --
23:22Phil Chin: I thought you said I need -- I should --
23:23Maceo: I’m saying you’re like, you could just say like, I’m no expert. This is just what I know. Yeah, and then just talk about it from there. Yeah, this
23:29Phil Chin: is
23:29Maceo: I don’t think -- like, there are very few experts.
23:31Phil Chin: Yeah, yeah, this is what I know.
23:34Maceo: Yeah,
23:35Phil Chin: and that is that American corporations started setting up plantations within Central and South America, and what they do is they grow fruit and then export it back to the United States and maybe to other countries too, but definitely in the United States, and sell them there. It was very, very profitable. These were called the Banana Republics. Uh, the term Banana Republics doesn’t mean you Usually refers to a country that is wholly dependent on the exportation of one thing. So that’d be like fruit, or -- and generally fruit is the best one -- maybe minerals of some sort. So yeah, these are not very diverse economies, so they end up being reliant upon those who are exporting whatever they are whoever’s buying it. So essentially, this is how we get to the modern day. I’m gonna skip over the 20th century and the 19th century as well with the socialist uprisings and all because that’s a lot to talk about, but I think this is the best framework we get to where we are now.
24:48Maceo: Okay.
24:49Phil Chin: So these economies are reliant upon exporting one good, so to speak. Mm-hmm. And so what happens here is that you can’t make a whole lot of money off of exporting one thing. There are many problems with that in terms of just, one, diversifying your economy. If the price, the global price of that good goes down, your economy suffers from it. And essentially, it makes these countries reliant upon the United States. Sorry. Well, the United States and Western powers in general. Tourism -- no one refers to that as a banana republic. I don’t think anyone would. But tourism is another way this is actually seen in terms of relying upon the West. So basically it’s almost like these countries are servicing Western interests. So
25:51Maceo: like things for us to consume.
25:53Phil Chin: Yes, things for us to consume. So we have to consider is a big question is throughout the 20th century and even today is how do we help these countries? You know, well, at least that’s been the question more in the media than anything else. Nothing is actually really being done. So when countries need things like aid, you know, when they need medicine, when they need basic things that they can’t afford because they’ve been forced -- because they’ve been constructed into these economies selling one thing and one thing only, they go to the IMF. This is the International Monetary Fund. So they provide loans for, you know, these countries, generally you know, it’s poorer countries, you know, countries who aren’t like wealthy like we are in the United States, uh, or Europe. So we see that. And so, however, in order for these countries to get these loans that they need, there are stipulations they have to follow. So one of these big ones is tariffs. So I should probably explain what a tariff is.
27:04Maceo: Yeah.
27:04Phil Chin: Yeah, to help out. So a tariff is basically -- no problem -- a tariff is basically a tax on imports. Um, so basically, if your country and you -- and not if you want to import something, but if a country wants to sell something to consumers in your country, you can say, okay, um, that’s fine, but then if you’re going to sell those goods in my country, you’re going to have to pay this tax on those goods. So basically forces them to raise the price of those goods to basically make a profit. or meet those taxes. I am not a big fan of -- at least I wasn’t a big fan of tariffs, at least in terms of the United States. Um, I, I don’t like the idea of protection -- protectionists. It’s called protectionism. And basically, I’m not a big fan of having, having American companies have more power, like not being able to compete with, uh, foreign brands. I think they should do it on their own. However, when it comes to --
28:06Maceo: That’s fair. I feel like,
28:08Phil Chin: yeah,
28:09Maceo: if your entire workforce is here.
28:10Phil Chin: Yeah, yeah, definitely. But when it comes to like poorer countries, you know, who aren’t as wealthy as us, I would say tariffs are practically needed. Tariffs are needed so they can protect their own industries and let them grow naturally, domestically, from within to make these countries richer instead of they have to leech off of other economies, other countries, nations,
28:36Maceo: other markets.
28:36Phil Chin: Yes, exactly. So, so when it comes to the IMF, if you take like Jamaica for example, you know, Jamaica, big tourist spot and all, but when it came to the agriculture industry, the IMF basically said this: if you want this loan, you will -- you have to lower your tariffs to almost non-existent. So what happens there is that, um, other corporations from like America, especially from America, they can come in, uh, and they can sell their produce or whatever goods they have for a much lower price than the local market because there are no tariffs. Mm-hmm. And they can do that because they’re huge. All right, and they can basically price out the entire industry.
29:28Maceo: Yeah, and so these IMF policies are kind of predatory.
29:31Phil Chin: Yes, very predatory. Yeah, yeah, so very predatory, and it basically makes these countries again not only reliant upon foreign investors, but also it makes them service other countries, and that’s essentially what colonialism is. If you think about it. Yeah. There are also problems with the lending of itself, which causes inflation. But I think if we’re going to talk about -- if we’re going to start talking about colonialism in the modern day, I think talking about just these predatory policies and predatory stipulations that the IMF puts upon these countries is an important place to start. So yeah.
30:20Maceo: Where -- like, how did you start learning about these?
30:23Phil Chin: So I started learning about this in one of my, um, political -- so one of my economics classes called Political Economy of Urban Development. Uh, we were first talking about, um, colonialism and how colonialism was set up, why certain countries, um, got out of colonialism, became rich like the United States, and why some became poor. The reason is because of, again, how the infrastructure is set up, how the roads are set up especially. So the United States was something considered a settler colony, and what that meant was that people from wherever -- Europe, I guess, at least for sake of simplicity, England -- would come over and they would be coming to America to settle the land and to live there, and what that would require is basically the genocide of Native Americans. So that is how the genocide of Native Americans happened. Obviously, it happened over multiple centuries. Yeah, it was absolutely horrible, but essentially meant killing Native Americans, taking their land, resettling it with white people. The non-settler colony was different in that it was meant for only resource extraction. So what that meant was basically countries would -- so, so like European countries or whatever, whoever the colonizer was, they would set up ports along the coast to make it easier. And those would be places where, um, you know, whatever resource would be extracted, um, They would be sent to the port, and then when they’re sent to the port, they’d be shipped off back to, you know, back to Europe. And then basically the non-settler colony was made to make things more efficient to extract resources, but it doesn’t really do much when in the end, after colonialism, you’re not left with much infrastructure to build anything. Mm-hmm. You know, it was all set up to extract resources. So that’s another way that colonialism is seen in the modern day as well.
32:37Maceo: Isn’t like these extractive economies?
32:41Phil Chin: Yes. So basically these -- so the reason why these economies are set up, again back to like the banana republics, not only just how the US set them up and made them rely on corporations, but also how initially when like the Spanish came to Central America, uh, they were focused on like extracting obviously gold, um, and other resources to bring back to Europe. And that is how Spain for some time became the most dominant power on Earth, through extracting resources, practically stealing them. But that doesn’t matter. Well, it does matter at that point, but the point is they were taking it and then basically reselling it. And then, yeah, it was It is still terrible and it still exists today. So there’s a reason why -- the reason why I would say some countries are poorer than others or some countries are richer than others is because of the legacy of colonialism and how these institutions and infrastructure has been set up by colonial powers to basically put them at a disadvantage. So yeah.
33:47Maceo: You were talking like -- when you were talking about like Extractive economies. I was thinking about like places where, like, I guess like factories, essentially like factory towns or like communities where like, uh, ex -- like getting labor from overseas or other countries has left people in certain parts of the US without jobs and employment at different points in time throughout like the 20th century in particular is what I think about. Do you think that’s kind of like a parallel?
34:16Phil Chin: I think, I think in some ways, yes, you can. parallel this. I don’t think it’s one-to-one exactly.
34:23Maceo: Yeah, no, certainly not. But I mean in terms of the practice of going to capitalize on labor markets.
34:29Phil Chin: Yes, exactly.
34:30Maceo: In ways that aren’t necessarily concerned for the welfare of the labor markets themselves in the long term.
34:35Phil Chin: Yeah, especially. If you look on the back of your clothing, whoever’s listening to this, you do it whenever, you can probably see that it wasn’t made in the US or wherever country you’re in right now. It was probably made by someone in Vietnam, China, maybe -- yes, somewhere like that where textile industry -- where basically wages are so low that it’s so profitable to sell, you know, items of clothing. Hell, these companies also probably use prison labor as well here in the United States. So that’s another thing that, you know, we don’t really talk about a lot. It’s been talked about a little bit more, but we don’t -- we haven’t really talked about a lot in that the 13th Amendment obviously had the exception of except for a crime, so which allows for unpaid or barely, barely paid at best labor to use in prisons. And a lot of corporations still use that today.
35:42Maceo: Yeah. I’ve been trying -- that’s something else I want to learn more about, like the prison industrial complex and like how certain people kind of get paid to fill beds or even just have contracts set up like where people need to fill beds. And I remember like the first time I really encountered that was watching the documentary or docuseries The 13th on Netflix in high school. And I feel like in college I spent a little bit more time like reading about the school-to-prison pipeline and how that functions in public school systems as well. But it’s just something I don’t know a whole lot about. I agree with you. I think all of that really isn’t something we talk about a whole lot, and something else I feel like we could spend more time talking about considering how much time we talk about who can and can’t say the N-word.
36:20Phil Chin: Yeah, I think that’s definitely something we need to talk about. The prison industrial complex is not something that I’m very knowledgeable on myself. I think you said you are probably more knowledgeable than I am about it. I’m more knowledgeable about the drug war and how that has fueled like mass incarceration here in the United States. And I think when we consider basically crime in the United States is that it’s not because of the people, it’s a function of the system. You know why, you know, we have more people in prison than any country in the world? It’s all a function of the system.
36:58Maceo: Yeah.
36:59Phil Chin: It’s not meant to rehabilitate, it’s meant to fund corporations essentially to their benefit. So I think this is something that we still gotta talk about. Colonialism is still alive and well here in the United States. It’s preying off of not just -- it’s preying off of poor people, but it’s also preying off the people of color. It’s preying off of, hell, even people who are transgender, gender non-conforming, You know, you -- it’s no coincidence that you see, um, they’re being preyed upon too, I think is the best way I can put it. I’m not, not an expert on this, but they are being preyed upon too. A lot of different people who are minorities in one way or another, they’re being preyed upon in the United States.
37:47Maceo: Yeah, yeah, like, like there are people whom are benefiting.
37:53Phil Chin: Yes.
37:53Maceo: Yeah. By society not working in ways that benefit those groups.
37:57Phil Chin: Yeah.
37:58Maceo: Yeah, I agree with that. All right, so how do you distinguish imperialism and colonialism, Phil?
38:05Phil Chin: So imperialism and colonialism actually overlap. So imperialism, by definition, is just imposing one’s power over another, so to speak, in terms of nations, to spread one’s influence, whether that be through coercion or military force. Colonialism is basically, I would say, using the land or resources or anything of another place for yourself. So that could be indirectly through what we see as economic imperialism, as what we just talked about, or we could actually see that as imperialism mixed with colonialism, like invasion, annexation, What the United States did as it moved across the American continent to the Pacific. We could see that in Russia’s invasion of Ukraine. Those are all imperialism and even colonialism together, so they go very much hand in hand. But colonialism and imperialism, we have to look at the root causes, is that it’s our capitalist system, so to speak. What capitalism requires is ever ever continuous growth, ever increasing growth, infinite growth. Um, as Albert Einstein once said, you know, the only people who expect things to grow infinitely are madmen and economists. So, but as we see with like the COVID pandemic, um, when things get disrupted, the whole system, you know, shakes. And even breaks down, people get hurt. So, but that’s the problem. Capitalism, in order to survive, requires constant growth, more consumption, more production, all these things. I also want to clarify that when it comes to defining which state is capitalist or not, I would say every superpower that has ever existed is capitalist in one way or another. The Soviet Union, they brandished them -- they call themselves socialists, they call themselves communists. They were not communists. They had this structure of capitalism. They had markets that were focused on producing, and they were trying to outproduce the West. They called themselves socialists, but they really weren’t. They were state capitalists, capitalism run by the state. So yeah, that is something to consider. What I want to talk about, basically the roots of all this, the roots of imperialism and colonialism, is capitalism. The strive for ever-increasing growth, for profit, for greed. So yes, that is where I want to start.
40:55Maceo: Do you feel like it’s growth, or is it like development more broadly?
40:58Phil Chin: It’s growth. So Basically, what I mean by growth is like. So this is what happens. So an economy grows. You know, you have this GDP. It’s basically the total production a nation well total value a nation produces to oversimplify things. So what one what investors want because this is important because capitalism is essentially investing. But what investors always want to see in like stocks is you know this from your. um, you know, investing in crypto, you want to see, you know, a stock, or you want to see something perform consistently over and over and keep growing, because that is how you make money.
41:43Maceo: Yeah. All
41:44Phil Chin: right, when it comes to economies, it’s somewhat of a similar, um, phenomenon because What a recession is, is just negative growth. It doesn’t seem like it’s such a big deal, but the problem is in capitalism, how it works is that if there’s negative growth, that compounds in and of itself. Because think about it like this, you know, you have stock, you know, you see it’s losing its value because people are selling. You want to get yourself out so you don’t lose too much money or any money or even more money. And then, you know, other people think, okay, I need to get out. I need to get out, and it keeps plummeting. The same thing is working with economies in the sense of bonds. People buy treasuries to basically -- it’s almost like a loan. I wouldn’t call it a loan to a government, but it’s basically you’re buying dollars. And so when people stop buying bonds, there’s less lending that occurs with the government. The banks probably have less in reserve. So then when there’s less lending and less borrowing, And that means that, um, there’s less circulation of money in the economy. When there’s less circulation of money in the economy, it basically cascades. See what I mean?
43:01Maceo: Yeah.
43:02Phil Chin: So that is why I want to talk about growth. Development is very different because when we talk about development, we have to talk about what do we mean by development. So we see like an empty plot of land somewhere, like what do we put in the empty plot of land, you know? Because no matter what we put there, it’s technically growth, and it’s technically also development. But it’s also very important what we put there, not because of we want to try to make the economy as big as possible, but what do we want for ourselves? Do you want to put a hospital there? Do we want to put a school there? Or do you want to put a prison there? So yeah, that’s what we need to think about when we think about growth and development.
43:41Maceo: Okay. And so going from there Well, so then what’s the root of the problem? Like, you say the root of the problem is this infinite desire for growth.
43:53Phil Chin: Yes. So that actually brings me to an important point I want to talk about. Um, it’s important, it’s important to criticize billionaires and how they spend their money and how they are cruel, how they bust unions, how they mistreat their workers, but they’re also a product of the system. So what I mean by that is that In my opinion, you give anyone -- I’m not gonna say you give anyone a billion dollars, you’re gonna -- they’re gonna turn evil. Um, what I’m gonna say is, it’s no surprise though that every, every ruler that has been in history -- well, maybe not every single ruler, but every ruler with almost absolute power has turned into a dictator. Every person, every billionaire turns out to be a scum of a human being. It’s no coincidence that this all happens to be the case, because capitalism compels these billionaires to increase their money even further, to increase their value even further. So what I want to -- I think is important to talk about is that yes, we should be criticizing individuals, but it’s the system that is the problem.
45:02Maceo: Yeah.
45:03Phil Chin: So we need to So yeah, so capitalism, you know, people talk about capitalism being broken. I would say that capitalism is working as intended. These are the effects that we see. Um, one big problem with capitalism is that, you know, even like, let’s say in Europe, you see investment into some investments like social programs, some you see universal healthcare there. But one thing they have to consider there is that They even in Europe, they ask the question, okay, is this profitable though? So for example, before the COVID pandemic, a lot of nations, the US included, same with Canada, Italy, Spain, they all underwent austerity measures into their healthcare industries. So when the COVID epidemic hit, you know, it hit a lot harder. Germany, on the other hand, did not undergo these austerity measures. They did not cut their healthcare spending because it would have been politically unviable to do so. So they did not feel the brunt of the COVID pandemic when it came. So we have to ask, why are these austerity measures happening? And the reason they’re happening is because it’s not profitable. You know, we don’t have universal healthcare in the United States, but we actually pay more for healthcare than almost any other country on earth. You know, uh, we spend way more than Germany, we spend way more than Italy, we spend way more than Nordic countries. The reason is, is that’s privatized. And when it’s privatized, you know, you get higher prices. Um, so I think we need to think about is how do we -- if we’re going to break down capitalism We have to figure out how do we do that. Now, I’m not going to say there’s one way or one way only, but I’m going to say for right now, the one thing that we can do is we can push things that benefit people. We need to help people and then also reframe how we see a nation’s success. So we see nation’s success in terms of GDP or maybe Purchasing power parity has been something used, but those are all those are all indicators of economic strength. We should be maybe we should be looking at economic strength. Maybe we should be looking at happiness, life expectancy, homelessness rate, literacy rate maybe, and then maybe you then. shape our societies in a way to pursue those goals. Do you understand what I’m getting at here?
47:58Maceo: Yeah, I think so. Like, looking at where are the shortcomings of society and thinking about, like, how can we work to amend these, these things where society is failing, these instances, work to ensure that, like, these same demographics were not failing to the same degree next year. looking for those, for that data, so that we can use it to make more informed decisions. Because we can only attend to so many things at once, and we do need to know what we’re prioritizing and why. That’s what I understand.
48:27Phil Chin: Yeah, yeah. But I think even before we do that, I think the biggest thing is that we need people’s voices from everywhere. I am a big believer in direct democracy. I’m not a big believer in representative democracy because that’s how we get where we are today. I think we need people -- we -- I don’t want to pressure anyone speaking out, but if we can hear people’s voices, if people can feel empowered to speak no matter what group they come from, that’s how we go about solving our issues that we face. Because I would say, you know, um, well, I, I think it actually speaks for itself, really. You know, the best people who know what they need are the people who Or them, just the people, you know. I can’t say I know every single person’s problems. I can just tell them I know what you need. I think people know what they need. That’s how I see it.
49:20Maceo: I think people do know what they need. And I think even like, we’re saying something else I want to go back to, like helping people being the priority of the economy. And I think like public -- the public interest isn’t really all the time what we do prioritize. And I think in my view, some of what’s important for us to do is to recognize the systems which are implicitly oppressive that keep us from being able to promote the public interest in a really radical way. I feel like -- I went to a panel last week. They were talking about gerrymandering in Pennsylvania and redistricting the new district on the Carter map that’s just been implemented. Earlier this year. And something that was really fascinating to me was learning about like how long this map’s supposed to last. It’s supposed to last a decade, but there are amendments being proposed to the Pennsylvania Constitution or whatever it is, like for it to only last one election season, which would mean that like all the work that went into devising this map that’s more -- that’s theoretically more fair. And so even statistically, like, like I think there’s like 10 fewer seats that have that in the last 2 elections went to Republicans that now potentially can vote to Democrats and not to Democrats necessarily, but the difference in votes and the votes for each party are different based on this new map in a way that seems more equitable. Equal? Equal. And I think that that is cool. But the notion that this map could just be taken away next year and not last 10 years, despite it being like they literally crowdsourced, like they had people They put it on the internet so we could see like how the maps were, how they came to be designed, and what the requirements were. So people from all across Pennsylvania, all across the country really, all across the world could submit proposals for what maps. And some math faculty actually here even submitted a map. But this one that was chosen was chosen because it theoretically promotes more fairness and the notion that actively there are people trying to ensure that the most fair map is what we’re abiding by when we vote on things at the state level is kind of scary and is very, in my mind, very reflective of motivations that are not alongside the public interest. And I feel like there are oftentimes motivations that aren’t public interest that we can’t necessarily recognize moving things around us in society as well.
51:35Phil Chin: Yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely. I think especially when it comes to redistricting, it goes against everything, in my opinion, that democracy is meant to be about. It is politicians choosing their voters rather than voters choosing their politicians. Yeah, not only just -- even if we just set aside, you know, the racial aspect of gerrymandering, how that came about.
51:57Maceo: How did it come about?
52:01Phil Chin: I’m not actually very clear on this, but basically, if I remember correctly, Republicans were The Republicans apparently effectively lost minority voters. Their voting base, like it is today, is majority white. If you look at the exit polls, you will see that Republicans win the white -- the vote from white people. Democrats win the vote from everyone else. So basically it was meant to exclude Black people and like put them in corners. So basically when they drew the maps, they could have more representatives who were not being -- who were unequal, so to speak. Um, there are some crazy districts if you’ve seen some of these, how they were drawn. Um, yeah.
52:58Maceo: Um, thanks for that explanation.
53:01Phil Chin: Yeah, it’s a very bare-bones one.
53:04Maceo: It’s okay.
53:04Phil Chin: It was actually funny because the guy who came up with this idea was actually called like Jerry with a G. So it was just called -- it was called gerrymandering. Well, I was like, his name was Jerry Mander. It was like, I can’t remember. It was kind of funny. John Oliver did an episode on it for Last Week Tonight. If you look it up, he does a much better explanation than I could.
53:24Maceo: Boom, go check that out. Yeah, I could go watch.
53:27Phil Chin: Yeah. Yeah, I like John Oliver. I do. Yeah. So, yeah, redistricting, I think it just shows like the problems of representative democracy because I feel like people in Congress will have their own priorities, their own biases, their own interests, and they won’t necessarily serve the interests of the people who vote for them.
53:59Maceo: Yeah,
54:00Phil Chin: and I feel like in the US many groups of people are forced to vote for someone who just isn’t as bad as the other guy. In fact, let me ask you a question. What do you think of Democrats in general?
54:15Maceo: Of Democrats in general?
54:18Phil Chin: Yeah.
54:18Maceo: Um, I guess my impressions of Democrats are that they are better than Republicans, but not like in like a like these people are more valuable. But I guess that they tend to be, I mean, at least theoretically, more woke. But I think woke is an abstract term, and I feel like I haven’t really actively given much thought to like what Democrats are like, to like what I think about Democrats, honestly. I feel like it’s maybe middle school when I first felt my conception. I was like, Obama’s Black, he’s running for president. All right, cosign. Mm-hmm. But I think like The notion of being more woke, I now think of like with more nuance and like being more present to other people’s experiences. I feel like woke is like a very broad and ambiguous term, but I think just kind of ideally, like Democrats are more -- have more of an investment in serving the public interest is kind of my presupposition. But I tend to just look for the people that are actively promoting public interest. And see if those people are the people I want to vote for. But I would say that’s kind of my take on Democrats. I don’t really --
55:26Phil Chin: But isn’t that interesting, though? You, you, you just like them because they’re better than Republicans. Well, I don’t know if you said you like them, but you like them better than Republicans because when it comes to Republicans, there are a lot more you could lose that’s at stake. I think that’s a lot for a lot of people who, well, aren’t Well, I’ll tell you, that’s something for a lot of people in general. There’s a lot they have at stake when it comes to whether Republicans are in power or whether Democrats are in power. Mm-hmm. So yeah, Democrats, they aren’t perfect, but that, that’s kind of the feeling we get with Democrats. They’re just better than Republicans, and that’s why we vote for them. In my opinion, Actually, before I even go into my opinion, there was a video by Johnny Harris on YouTube, and he talked about how liberal hypocrisy is basically stalling progress for us. He focused on housing to begin with, and he talked about how in Democrat-controlled areas where they basically have say for whatever they want, Mm-hmm. When there are bills proposed to build affordable housing in areas, they often get struck down, even in these Democrat areas. And the reason being is, well, for any capitalist reason, you know, people think that if you put affordable housing in an area, then all the property values go down, and then you can’t sell your house for more. And there’s also obviously the racism to it, because that definitely exists, and that’s definitely something. Um, even if it’s not racism, you know, it’s probably some other bigotry. It was probably all that bigotry in general that exists, probably implicitly, that these people don’t want to admit.
57:15Maceo: Yeah.
57:16Phil Chin: So the fact that they’re stalling things like affordable housing, which can help like not only just homeless people but everyone -- and I mean everyone -- if people can get easy, affordable housing, imagine how much less you’d have to worry about You know?
57:32Maceo: Yeah.
57:33Phil Chin: Those are my -- I think that sums up my thoughts on Democrats in general. But I think when we think about, um, progress, well, I think to myself, well, Democrats, at least the pain will be lessened a little bit, just a little, but you know. I think it just shows the flaw in representative democracy.
58:04Maceo: Yeah.
58:05Phil Chin: Yeah,
58:06Maceo: I think you shouldn’t be looking for the better of two evils.
58:11Phil Chin: Yeah,
58:12Maceo: I think that is not the way you want people to be looking for.
58:14Phil Chin: Yeah. Yeah, but, um,
58:17Maceo: you said you also wanted to talk about like the -- you kind of talked about like the roots of colonialism and imperialism. He said he wanted to also look at, like, what are solutions?
58:28Phil Chin: So yeah, um, I think it depends on how you want to talk about it. Do you want to talk about immediate solutions or very long term? Like, where should we -- where do you want to start?
58:37Maceo: Um, I guess start with long term and then kind of as you spell that out, immediate solutions kind of fit into that larger picture, I would assume.
58:45Phil Chin: Okay, yeah, long-term solutions again is basically what I said. We need to end capitalism and think about a system that actually helps people, that invests in people. Now I’m probably what some would consider an anarchist. I’m not -- well, there are different forms of anarchists, but I believe that the state is naturally oppressive. As long as the state exists in any form, it will oppress people, and I think that capitalism will still thrive under the system. However, if I am wrong, and I am willing to accept that, then yeah, when I think about myself as an anarchist, I think of myself as more progressive. I’m not saying we must end the state at any cost. I say we must do what we can to bring about the maximum well-being and happiness to people. That is my goal. So generally how I see it is that As long as states exist, they will abuse their power. And that is why I consider myself an anarchist. There is other branches of anarchism like anarcho-capitalism, but those are just a bunch of weird guys who just don’t want to pay taxes. So we don’t, we don’t, we don’t talk about them. All right. Yeah. Um, but getting into more short-term solutions, I think let’s talk about internationally and how we solve colonialism. So more short-term solutions is that we have to think about how are we going to help countries, how do we maybe not necessarily build countries, but how do we give countries the aid that they need? And I say we forget the loans, We forget them having to pay back any of these loans, because that’s the thing I forgot to talk about, that obviously you go to IMF, you get a loan, you have to pay it back at a higher interest, which also actually increases your inflation. Mm-hmm. I say, I think as the world we need to cooperate. I think we need to -- one could say as either reparations for colonialism and imperialism, or even just to help You know, our fellow human beings. We just give money. We just give money to countries who need it. Or maybe we give them equipment to help them with whatever they need. You know, a blank check, essentially nothing in return. Now, a lot of people are not gonna like that. I think politically that is very hard to sell any country on. I think because it’s gonna -- it’s just people are gonna bring up, well, I don’t want to be paying for this country or that country. People say that even nowadays, at least, well, with conservatives, they always say, I don’t want to be paying for someone’s education or whatnot, that’s why I shouldn’t have to pay taxes. Quote from my dad. Him and I don’t get along. But, um, so I think that is something that I would say should be done. Mm-hmm.
1:01:56Maceo: I would say something I’m interested in is like you were talking earlier about my interest in crypto, and honestly I don’t really invest as actively in crypto, um, as much as I do try and like research stuff and like research different organizations. And I think like the, the potential for me that’s really interesting around crypto was like with community organizing, even like with my interest in music. I think about like how artists can use like their communities and organize their communities more so. with like decentralized autonomous organizations, which is short for like -- and people call them DAOs, they just call them DAOs for short. But like the notion that people can use, like create their own little economies for their communities and then all collectively decide how they want to spend money once they all have it inside like this collective entity. It’s kind of cool because I feel like it kind of allows people to do kind of what you’re talking about. Like you see it with climate action in particular, they have this thing called KlimaDAO where they try to essentially carbon -- like tokenized carbon offset emissions. And like the -- and like the way in which, like, like we know Tesla, they sell their carbon offset emissions, um, to other companies who are trying to meet like the legal quota for how much like carbon like emissions you’re allowed to have. Um, but what this DAO does essentially is they try to -- like they allow investors to come and buy their token and put their money inside of the treasury, and then the DAO then uses it to buy tokenized carbon offset emissions, ideally making them more scarce in the market so that when people actually do go to buy them to be in alignment with this policy, the pricing is more competitive because the public has bought them all out of the market. And so now if they want to buy them, they have to buy them back from these climate activists, which only further funds these climate activists to be able to really do the same thing back to them again. I mean, so I think that’s really fascinating, but I think there’s a lot of other potential as well when it comes to philanthropy. for people to kind of do similar things with not necessarily like needing legislation, but like with oversight. Like communities that want to give money can see who they’re giving money to, and communities can crowdfund giving the money and also work with people whom they deem to be like worth, you know, collaborating with, cooperating with, and who they are interested really in cooperating with. So that’s something that I would say excites me about Crypto, kind of going back to that.
1:04:07Phil Chin: Yeah. Yeah, I think we need to invest in our communities, whether legislatively or just together.
1:04:13Maceo: Yeah, I agree with that.
1:04:14Phil Chin: Yeah. Um, I think, yeah, so a big reason why I’m an anarchist is because I don’t think -- honestly, I don’t think things like that -- like, on a community level, we see each other helping each other, but on the level that we need, I don’t think that will happen under the state. I think climate -- but take a look at climate change. I think even if we had our liberal people in power, I think climate change would still be a problem because climate change is a product of capitalism, unfettered growth. The idea was, who gives a shit how many emissions you get in if we can just give our stockholders a bump in their -- Profits. And their pocket change, I guess. I don’t know. It’s just investment into the things that are actually important to us is what we need to do. So yeah, whether that be hospitals, schools, you name it, human capital.
1:05:13Maceo: Yeah, keep it alive.
1:05:16Phil Chin: Keep it alive. Keep people alive. Keep people happy, you know. Have people live fulfilling lives. That’s what I want. from people. I don’t care how much I have to lose myself if people are living, you know, the best life. If we can get the maximum amount of happiness and well-being out of all people everywhere, you know, that is a goal that I would want to -- I want to strive for.
1:05:41Maceo: Yeah, that makes sense. I agree with that. And we can go together.
1:05:48Phil Chin: Yeah,
1:05:48Maceo: as they were saying, we just came In the middle of this recording, we ran to the Take Back the Night event over on campus organized by Chelsea Ryman and the Alice Drum Women’s Center and their e-board. I thought they did a fantastic job.
1:06:02Phil Chin: They did, they did a great job. Denise, the poet from New York, I forget her last name, it escaped me at the moment, but she was absolutely amazing. Her poems were absolutely beautiful, so powerful. You know, I, I had to ask her what is her secret technique, but yeah, it was amazing. I’m glad I went.
1:06:26Maceo: Yeah, I’m definitely glad I went as well. It’s great to hear Denise recite her poetry. It was great to hear our peers Ashley and Gianna recite poetry as well. It was phenomenal to hear Alfie. I thought they all did a spectacular job. It was great also to hear President Altman’s words as well. I think like being here and being at the college, definitely easy for me personally to not think about, you know, her being in like, I think what Chelsea said was a lineage of -- I don’t remember exactly what word she used, but like --
1:06:59Phil Chin: A lineage of activists, I believe.
1:07:00Maceo: Of activists. And I think that’s not something I always think about when I think of her. I hear a lot of people criticizing the college and President Altman, but she has arrived in this presidency, our first president that is a woman. At the college, um, and even just doing things that are unprecedented, being blindsided by pieces of information like that the college has not been managing its finances in an at all appropriate way. Um, but I think, I don’t know, I was excited to hear her speak and open up that event because once again she’s here, she’s doing the work really of investing in, like you’re saying, education institutions that do uplift people, uplift society. Um, and that do invest in the future of society. And I think that she definitely deserves to be recognized for that. And I was excited to hear what she had to say at this particular event because I feel like I haven’t seen her a whole lot this year.
1:07:52Phil Chin: All right. Yeah, yeah, same. Yeah, I haven’t seen her at all, but yeah, it was good to hear from her. And, um, yeah, it’s like, it’s almost comforting and it’s kind of cool, like, thinking about being part of a lineage of activists Especially, especially if you get into it.
1:08:09Maceo: Yeah,
1:08:11Phil Chin: honestly, I think I’d be honored to hear my words quoted if I ever got that far. I don’t know if that’ll happen, but that would be something. Yeah. Yeah, definitely. Yeah, you got an activist in mind who you looked up to? Who you look up to?
1:08:23Maceo: Mm-hmm. That’s a good question. I would say, hmm, like for my independent study on campus, I work with Professor Kufari. And I think that working with her and Professor Elena Cuffari -- she’s a cognitive science and moral psychology professor here. She works looking at embodied cognition and active cognition in particular is something that she studies, and phenomenology. And working with her right now, we’re unpacking hope and what hoping is. And I worked with her and her husband actually over the summer as well, another professor, Dr. and Professor George Fourlas. And it was interesting working with both of them because, like, Dr. and Professor Kufari, like, she said, hey, I think you’d get along well with, with my husband, this professor. And I was like, oh, I’ve never heard of this guy before. Uh, like, they’re both new to the college at this point in time. This is like early junior year. I met with them like over Zoom. They kind of explained to me what their joint project was, looking at like collective sense-making and like how we think about people in society and how we interact with people in a public manner. And I ended up working with Professor Forlas, and he was writing -- working on a manuscript for this book that was an extension of his thesis in grad school looking at decolonial theory. And I thought it was just fascinating to really see someone unpack the ideas of colonialism, the ideas of political tension and derogation, and how we interact with people and how we blame one another for things. In a way that doesn’t promote anything, any sort of outcome that is constructive, but just kind of forecloses cooperation in the present. And I thought he really just wrote super eloquently. I think the two of them, like working with her, looking particularly at hope and how we create hope in community and how we get hope from community as well, and working with him to look at the larger Middle Eastern North African diaspora. and kind of what it’s gonna take to create hope for reconciliation in that demographic was particularly fascinating. So I would say there’s people I look to right now. I would say the two of them are definitely up there on my list because I know they’re doing a lot and they’re doing well and they’re raising two children. And I think like doing all of that, being professors, being researchers, being parents, is a whole lot of work. But I think sometimes they make it look easy. I think that’s impressive, and I think they make me think that it would be cool also to be an educator, but to also be a researcher. And maybe not necessarily in the confines of like an academic setting, but in a way that also lets me kind of do some of what they’re doing. Because I really did enjoy working with both of them. I feel like I got exposed to political theory in a way I’d never ever been exposed to before, and I think the challenge is always bringing theory and practice together. But I think there’s people who helped me at least get a sense of what that can look like. So I would say I admire them for kind of helping me to get a sense of that. And I think ideally I’d like to help other people also get a sense of, I guess, not just how we can interpret theory, but where we can find theory and how we can be creating theory ourselves and really understand what theory is and what philosophy is and where we, I guess, sit inside the landscape of what exists. I guess that’s just reality. But yeah, I would say I admire them because I think they’re trying to give people tools to deal critically with, with what reality is offering us.
1:11:52Phil Chin: Yeah, that’s awesome. Yeah.
1:11:55Maceo: What about you?
1:11:56Phil Chin: Well, I’m gonna give you an easy one because I would say all leftists look up to this man. I’ll take Fred Hampton. I think, yeah, basically everyone who’s progressive always looks up to him. I think when you consider the fact that he and the Black Panthers are the reason why school lunches are a thing, I think that’s absolutely huge. I think that’s the one that comes into my mind. That is one, you know, there’s obviously -- I can’t tell the story of Black Panthers, you know, just by saying, you know, they brought school lunches, you know. Obviously did a lot more, which is -- I’m not, I’m not the best educated to talk about Black Panthers, but the fact that that wasn’t a thing and they brought that. It actually brings me hope that change can happen, you know, that we can bring about change, that we can pressure and push and bring about true change.
1:12:43Maceo: I mean, I believe it. I think that kind of goes back to what you were saying, how do we measure the economy? Like, I think we definitely get results, but what results are we tracking? Yeah, I think it is important for us to track the results that not just allow us to help ourselves as best possible, but also that can inspire hope, you know, because I think people are actively doing work in society to make the future better. But if we only focus on the billionaires or the companies that are screwing over our environment, everything else bad that there is to focus on, I think it’s easy to miss out on every opportunity we have in our lives to get involved and to make a difference.
1:13:20Phil Chin: Yeah, yeah, definitely. I just think if we could all live in a world where everyone around us is happy, their, their well-being is good, you know, they’re living fulfilling lives, I think we’d feel happier from that. I think we all like to be around those types of people. I think we feel happy for other people when they’re successful, when they get their wings, when they are out there, you know. I think, I think we’d all live happier lives if we were happier, and I think that is what we need to focus on. Not just being happy, but also fulfilling lives. as well. Like, my economics teacher asked me this -- well, professor, sorry. He asked me, you know, what would you be doing if you were not -- if you don’t have to worry about money? Mm-hmm. And, you know, for myself, I’d just be a writer. You know, I wouldn’t be thinking -- I might be thinking about law school, but that could change for people. People would still do good work. People would still Yeah, like what would you do if you didn’t have to worry about money?
1:14:19Maceo: Um, I’d probably still be doing this, I think. I feel like I’d probably just do this. I feel like there’s not really like -- I’d probably be learning. And I feel like something I’m excited about with this podcast, I feel like I get to learn from people like in conversation, something I already appreciate being able to do in my everyday life, but I feel like kind of recording it and trying to make it accessible to other people, it’s nice because you don’t always get to be a part of certain conversations. And I think that growth does come with conversations and with taking time to reflect and interpret ideas and also encounter the ideas of other people which might be in opposition or in contrast to your own. I think juxtaposition in that way is essential to society and social progress. Being able to see the extremes that exist in people’s perspectives, I think, is important because it’s a duality that exists and that exists inside of like what’s gonna happen in the future. You know, people one place are talking about one thing like it’s like concrete and real and exactly the truth, and people other places are doing the exact same thing and saying opposite things. I think it’s kind of like, who’s to say who’s right? But at the end of the day, like, can’t we work together? Can’t we hear each other? And I think that the value comes from the discussions about where we disagree and figuring out why we disagree on what we do. I think it takes a lot of patience, but I think They kind of having those conversations and recording them ideally takes some of the work off the people that maybe are disenfranchised by those disagreements. So I think it would probably just be this: I enjoy rapping, and I think it would be cool to spend more time on music. But I do see like this podcast is a more practical way to building a brand and to making this like a profitable endeavor. So yeah, I would say I’d probably be doing both those things, listening to more music and But beyond that, I don’t really know. I feel like the -- I’d probably just be a bit more like -- I’d probably go with the flow a little bit more if I didn’t have to worry about money.
1:16:16Phil Chin: Yeah,
1:16:17Maceo: there wouldn’t be that pulling me -- like, it wouldn’t pull me in a direction, you know? Like, I would actually have, I feel like, free control over my time and how I use it.
1:16:23Phil Chin: See? Yeah, imagine that. It’s a lot better.
1:16:29Maceo: Yeah, it’s hard to imagine though.
1:16:30Phil Chin: It is hard to imagine, but you know.
1:16:35Maceo: Yeah, I feel like it’s just like the -- I feel like it’s the -- what is it? It’s the price you pay for the benefits that come with living in a country built on the exploitation of people.
1:16:47Phil Chin: Yep. Yeah, but I feel like if we learn about this, you know, I think we can change people’s minds.
1:16:55Maceo: Yeah,
1:16:56Phil Chin: but sometimes, you know, it’s -- but sometimes people think it’s better living in ignorance. And maybe it is.
1:17:01Maceo: Sometimes it’s probably maybe, maybe more comfortable.
1:17:02Phil Chin: Maybe more comfortable, but it’s important we get uncomfortable. We get uncomfortable, we, I think, can confront ourselves.
1:17:10Maceo: Yeah, shout out Thomas.
1:17:12Phil Chin: Yeah,
1:17:12Maceo: it’s important that we get uncomfortable and confront ourselves and just get a real look at ourselves. I feel like if we don’t know ourselves actually, how can we ever really expect to know other people? We’re like, I feel like the blueprint for what it is to be a person for ourselves. And if there’s parts of ourselves we don’t see, there’s parts of other people we also don’t see, probably. But do you have anything else to add, Phil? You ready to wrap up?
1:17:32Phil Chin: I think I’m ready to wrap up. This has been amazing, man. Thank you for having me on.
1:17:35Maceo: Yeah, I mean, thanks for being on the podcast. Thanks for sharing with us.
1:17:40Phil Chin: Yeah.
1:17:40Maceo: Do you have any words you want to leave us with?
1:17:42Phil Chin: You know, not really. I would just say, uh, to everyone listening, always check in with yourself. Always think about yourself. Always make sure you’re doing all right, you know. That’s the best I can say.
1:18:01Maceo: Hell yeah, take care of yourselves. All right, Phil. Well, thank you so much once again.
1:18:08Phil Chin: Thank you for having me.
1:18:09Maceo: Yeah. And everybody else, have a, have a phenomenal rest of your day.
