An episode of We Them, the podcast Maceo started in college, where We Them Media began. It was published as audio only. This page carries its full transcript so the words can be read, searched and quoted. It is not a written piece. Listen to it where it was published.
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0:00Maceo: Hello everyone, welcome to the We Them Niggas podcast. This is our second recorded episode, but let me explain. This is our first actual We Them Niggas episode. And to let you guys in, what the name of this podcast is, the We Them Niggas podcast, because I’ve always enjoyed saying I’m that nigga, but We Them Niggas is a much more of a collective attitude, and I enjoy and I appreciate that. And that’s kind of what had me designated as the sentiment on top of which I want to start to build this brand, this legacy, and start documenting people around me. And I wasn’t sure about the name because I was like, what are people going to think? I have a podcast called We Them Niggas. They’re going to be like, oh, that’s not a good name. They’re not going to listen to it. They’re like, that’s like -- I don’t know. People have a lot of opinions. And so I was like, this is really what I want to have my podcast be called. And so I kind of just came to the conclusion, I think it just makes sense to talk about it. Everybody’s got an opinion. So why not document that? and make that like a central part of what it is we’re doing here. Uh, and so I guess what I’m doing here, but we, because this is the We Them Niggas podcast right now, it’s just me. But today we also got my dear friend Thomas Downs with us.
1:02Thomas Downs: Yes, sir.
1:03Maceo: Yeah. And he’s actually working on a podcast himself. He’s getting off the ground. So it’s exciting that we get to kind of do this both early on in our, in our stages as we take on this endeavor that is podcasting.
1:14Thomas Downs: Yes, sir. Yes, sir. I’m just, I’m happy to be here. Let me see, just to preface before we even start, man, This is something that me and Maseo do all the time, just sitting here talking about life and having some in-depth conversations. So for us, this is just like being able to, to have this type of platform to kind of talk about it. And like you said, document like kind of the things that we’ve always discussed before. So stuff like this is just like, it’s exciting. It’s one of those things where, hey, you don’t always get to, to have some, some good conversation -- conversations with people. And I think Maseo is definitely one of those people that once he asked me to do a dual episode, it was no question about it. So I’m happy to be here.
1:50Maceo: I really appreciate that, Thomas. I really appreciate that. I’m excited to be here with you as well and let everybody else in on what it is that we talk about.
1:56Thomas Downs: Yes, sir.
1:57Maceo: Uh, do you want to give them the name of your podcast as well?
1:59Thomas Downs: Yeah, so great. So my podcast is titled Come As You Are. When thinking about a podcast title, it took me a while to really think about like what I wanted to talk about. And I think for me, like, um, I am a Christian and I just see the world through the lens of my Christianity because that’s something that I wear on my sleeve or try to keep like really who I am at heart. And I think for me, when people hear that, sometimes it’s off-putting and saying like, oh, he’s looking at me a certain way, he’s judging me a certain way. But to me, in my Christianity, I believe that like, I love talking to people and hearing different opinions, whether you’re Christian or not. So I think for me, I wanted to create a platform to just be able to sit and talk about life. And I think for me, I’m seeing it through my lens, but I also wanna hear people see and see what they say about life. So we talk about a lot, wide array of things in my Come As You Are podcast. And I just invite people to come and listen as they are. Like, I don’t want you to change who you are in any way, shape, or form. I just want you to be able to bring your perspective into things because I feel like we’re all on this earth for a reason. And I feel like we all have something to bring to the table, whether it’s something that you may have a strength in, maybe something you may be weak in. I feel like we all have something to bring to the table. So I just invite people to come as you are. It’s my podcast. So I’m just happy to be here and trying to bring myself into Saleh’s space and hoping we can do something together.
3:19Maceo: Yeah, and that we are. That we are. That we are. So who is Thomas? Retired football player, former president of the Diplomatic Christian Fellowship, member of the Black Student Union, member of the Alumni Leaders of Tomorrow, ALiT program here at F&M, as well as a member of IMPACT, Intelligent Men Accomplishing College Together, a brotherhood of which we both joined our freshman year. Yes, sir. as well as a very active member of his church, Union Bethel African Methodist Episcopal Church. Yep. Yeah. Where he’s been a part of the program there and speaking since 2014, all the way to the present. And as we just explained to you guys, he’s starting up his podcast. And so that’s what we’re here to do today. We’re here to talk about, you know, the things that are on top of mind. And today those things are the value of being open and like why there’s value and not shying away from the place we find ourselves being uncomfortable, our experiences of that as it relates to college, and then inside that code-switching, and inside the code-switching, we get back to the word nigga, you know, and how that word has shown up for us throughout college, and even outside of college, just for us in general.
4:27Thomas Downs: Yes, sir.
4:28Maceo: Yeah. So I guess going to the value of being open, Thomas, do you wanna draw us into that conversation?
4:34Thomas Downs: Yeah, I think, I think, at least the way that I see the world right now, I feel like times are changing just in terms of life. And I feel like that’s one of the good things about life is things progress and things move forward. But I feel like as things become more diverse in general, I feel like we become less open to new things. And I feel like we really only grow in certain aspects of life when we’re open to new things and saying that. instead of arguing with you saying that you have a different opinion, like, how about we try to be more empathetic and really think about like, hey, let’s see where they’re coming from and hearing their perspective. ’Cause I feel like being open really, it doesn’t mean that you have to change, but at least it gives somebody else like the opportunity to say like, hey, even though I feel a certain way, I’m comfortable feeling that certain way. And I feel like, at least for me, like going back to like when I think about things from the Bible, I think -- In Luke 19, it talks about a story of Zacchaeus who was a tax collector. And basically tax collectors at that time were like, everyone hated them ’cause they were always stealing money, they were always wealthy, they weren’t really giving back, they were always taking money from the poor. And it was a story where Jesus was in town walking around doing his thing and Zacchaeus was like, dang, Jesus is here, let me go and speak to him. And he couldn’t, he was short like I am, so it’s like he climbed a tree, hopped in the tree, and Jesus, out of everyone that was there, Jesus saw Zacchaeus in the tree and was like, hey, Zacchaeus, I want you to take me home and make me dinner, and we can sit there and eat together. And Zacchaeus was like, all right, bet. And then Jesus, when Jesus was there sitting and talking, eating with everybody, Zacchaeus finally stood up and said, hey, Jesus, like, I’m gonna give away everything I’ve made. I’m gonna become a better person, and I’m just gonna grow in myself. And Jesus was like, well, I’m glad you finally came. And a lot of people were like, damn, Jesus, like, It’s all these people out here and you chose a tax collector, like the person that like nobody likes. But I feel like Jesus in being open changed Zacchaeus’ life. Like, and then on the other hand, like Zacchaeus being open to have Jesus come into his home. Like, he knew that, Zacchaeus knew he wasn’t a great guy ’cause he’d been doing all these bad things. Mm-hmm. And was like, hey, this is the Jesus that everyone says is so great and awesome. Should I be open to letting him in the house? Like knowing he’s probably gonna like judge me and want me to change my ways and stuff like that. But him being open changed himself and Jesus being open to saying like, hey, even though he’s not someone that I technically hang around all the time, I’m gonna be open to being into his presence and like just being around him and talking to him. And I feel like for me, that’s one of those small little moments in the Bible where it’s like, it kind of shows you how like you being open not only helps yourself, but it also helps other people. And I feel like if we can get to more of that in the world and society, I feel like at least the way that I see things, if we were a lot more open and understanding, I feel like the world would just be a better place. That’s kind of how I see it sometimes. That was kind of a long answer to that question, but I can talk about it forever, I feel like.
7:27Maceo: No, I think that’s evident. Where do you think like vulnerability fits into that, into that conversation about like being open? Because I feel like to some extent like Zacchaeus is being vulnerable by letting this person into his home, whom like you’re saying, you know, he has reason to expect might judge him for his approach to life, for his ethics when it comes to other people, the way he’s treating other people, the people he’s taking advantage of. I think like being open is important there, but I’m curious like how do you think about vulnerability as well?
7:51Thomas Downs: Yeah, that’s a good question because I feel like when -- I think vulnerability also comes into play sometimes with comfortability. And I feel like him, a lot of times we never really talk about your faults. Like, that’s something where it’s like when you’re sitting here saying like who you are, when you talked about me, I never said that like the bad things or the things that I feel about myself that I’m insecure about. I told you the things that like to bring up that are things that are good. And I feel like being vulnerable is one of those things that we just naturally as humans don’t really do often. Yeah. And I feel like that’s one of those things where a lot of times we don’t want to because we feel like we’re gonna be judged or we’re not comfortable with bringing those things up or being comfortable being vulnerable. And I feel like to me, those are intertwined. And I feel like if we can create better inclusive environments where we can be more comfortable, that also sways into how vulnerable I’m gonna be. ’Cause I feel like especially in certain areas that I am, like, I feel like I’m around certain people where I feel like I can be vulnerable because I’m comfortable. Yeah. And for him, Zacchaeus was like, hey, maybe Jesus is that person where I can finally be vulnerable and comfortable with. So maybe -- I think, I think a lot of times, like, anytime I hear vulnerability, I also think about comfortability. I think they kind of go hand in hand.
9:06Maceo: I think that makes sense. How would you say, like, for you, like, where, where are places where it’s harder for you to practice being open?
9:16Thomas Downs: Yeah, I think, I think for me too, like, I, I like being I will -- I want to be viewed in a certain way. And I feel like a lot of people do the same thing too, where, um, when you’re in certain environments, especially when you’re first meeting somebody, it’s like, I don’t want to let them know like who I am. Like, I want to just show them all the good things that I am so that they leave a good impression on me, on them, and stuff like that. Mm-hmm. So I feel like for me, when I’m first meeting people, being vulnerable sometimes is a little harder. But I feel like over time I realized sometimes that like in our human mind, like I’ve learned this in a social psychology class, that a lot of times we try as humans just to find something that we relate with, whether it be like race, ethnicity, whether it be music and things that we’ve talked about, like different type of things. We as humans naturally instinctively try to relate on certain things. So I feel like I realized over time that I can meet so many different people because I used to be so shy. But I feel like the more I kind of put my guard down, it was more vulnerable, I’m able to talk about things and like, bro, we relate so much when I, when I talk about stuff. So I feel like for a while I was so shy in meeting new people because I’m like, how could we relate? But the more I’m vulnerable in those situations, especially meeting new people, it’s almost like, dang, we’re, we’re a lot more similar than we are, um, not alike at this point. So I feel like that kind of ties into the answer to my question at that point.
10:38Maceo: Yeah, no, I hear that. I would say similarly, I found like I definitely used to be a super shy person. I think like my high school definitely gave me a space to feel like more self-assured. I was around like a lot of young men of color from different backgrounds across the country and even like internationally. But I would say I was around for the most part like young men of color, like once again.
10:58Thomas Downs: Mm-hmm.
10:58Maceo: And I think kind of being in an environment where we’re all kind of in this part of life where we’re all in high school, we’re all kind of looking forward. Or at least, I mean, we have to be looking forward. It’s high school. All we have really is the future, really, to think about. And there’s the present, of course. But I think we were in a boarding school and their mission was to provide -- Church Farm School is where I went -- and their mission was to provide college preparatory education to young men from low-income backgrounds. And I think for a lot of people, that was a space where they think of it as really being like, this is a place that affords me going to college and going to college affords me a different level of income than people otherwise might have. Yeah. And so I think I really appreciated that, but I also felt like it gave me a space to really feel like open about that. Like I went to a private middle school for 7th and 8th grade, and I frequently felt like I was the poorest person in that space.
11:44Thomas Downs: Yeah, yeah.
11:44Maceo: Without a question. But like, I didn’t really want to think about it. I didn’t want to think about what that meant. I didn’t really want to give space to that. But I think really being in that high school, in that environment, really gave me an opportunity to really think about like what that means for me and how I want to react to that reality. But also like what’s exciting about that reality. I’m surrounded by other people who likewise have an interest in like changing the lives of the people around them.
12:04Thomas Downs: Yeah.
12:04Maceo: And like really enjoying what, like what’s coming in the future and really working to ensure that that is what happens, or at least give themselves the, you know, the best chance at it, the best shot at it. And I think like being in that space gave me an opportunity to kind of admit some of those things to myself that I was maybe more embarrassed about, but not in a way that was like made me feel shame, made me feel kind of just like, I guess, accepted. It gave me a place to really be accepting because I didn’t feel like it was out of the norm or something to feel shameful about. I think that’s something that’s given me a lot more confidence as I explore the world, interact with people that don’t necessarily come from the same background as me. So I think accepting my reality has given me a whole new perspective on a lot of things and kind of being curious about where people come from and what they’ve accepted or maybe not accepted, but what there is even for them to accept. has been giving me a whole lot more confidence as I explore kind of who’s around me and what they have to offer. Not just me, but really just like what do they have to offer the world? Who is this person I’m interacting with? What are they about? You know, what’s important to them? Who’s important to them? Like you said, music for us is a common ground. Yeah. Everybody really does have different tastes. And so for me thinking about like, oh, what kind of music does this person like and like why? That’s what comes to mind for me oftentimes when I meet people. So, but I guess going back to music there, I’d actually like for you to talk a little bit about like your relationship to music.
13:18Thomas Downs: Yeah, I feel like for me, like, it’s always kind of, I guess it’s been in my blood. It’s kind of been in my family for a while. And I feel like it’s something that I gravitated towards, like, in elementary school where we had to choose an instrument to play. And like me just trying to be different, I chose the upright bass. Like, I was the only upright bass player playing that instrument at the time. And I was just like, I don’t want to play the violin, the viola, the cello, the recorder, as everyone pretty much does, but I was like, let me just do something different. So I have this huge instrument that I’m like playing and have to lug around all day and like stuff like that, which wasn’t as fun some days, but I learned to really love playing instruments. So then I went to middle school and played, started playing the trumpet in the band there. And then I was in the orchestra where I played the upright bass and then I was in the jazz band also. And I feel like for me, ever since then, I’ve kind of fell in love with How intricate and like detailed like music really is. Like the fact that like when I’m listening to certain songs, like, um, even like the background music, it’s like, bro, if that one viola was at an A instead of an A-flat, that whole like orchestra could have been totally different just now. Like you, even something so small like the cymbals hitting at a certain time, like someone with the little triangle not hitting it when they’re supposed to could just change the whole dynamic of the whole piece. And I feel like ever since then, I’ve kind of fell in love with not just music, but different types of music. And I think I’ve gravitated a lot towards like the hip-hop rap type of thing. And for me, a lot of songs that like don’t even have good lyrics sometimes, I just love good beats and beats that really make me feel and use my body. And it’s funny, I’m taking an embodied cognition class right now where we talk about how your body actually has a lot to do with your cognition and the way you think about things. A lot of times when I’m listening to songs where it’s like I just start tapping my foot, not even realizing -- like, I’m not making the conscious decision sometimes of tapping my foot, but the beat is so tough that I’m like, dang, bro, this, this is hitting right now. Like, yo, like, the lyrics are just flowing. I feel like that’s why some of my favorite rappers may not be the best lyrically, but sometimes the way they flow with beats and the beat being so good, sometimes like that’s something I gravitate towards where it’s like I know it’s so many great artists out there that have like the best lyrics ever sometimes, but it’s for me the musicality of not just the beat, but also someone who flows with the rhythm. And another thing why I love G Herbs, a lot of people say he raps offbeat, but oh my goodness, when he hops on a beat, it’s like the beat was made for him, even though it may not be the 1, 2, 3, 4 count that everybody’s used to. Mmhmm. But the way he flows on a beat and like is hitting every rhythm and every lyric. together, that to me is beautiful. And I, I think it’s a lot of beautifulness, like, in music itself. How about you? Like, what do you think?
16:04Maceo: What do I think? I mean, I agree with, with that a lot, honestly. I think that a lot of rappers that I like -- I like Lil Uzi Vert, a lot of my friends can tell you, was like the first big rap I really got into. And he is by no means like a lyrical prodigy, right? Uh, but he definitely was saying some things I liked. But -- But I think like at the same time, like his delivery over like beats that are more like -- he would use like more video game kind of samples, like things that were more, I guess, off book really for hip-hop at that point in time, at least in like terms of what I was listening to. I started listening to like 2014, 4-Hour Show, Strive, like freshman year of high school. J. Cole, I would say, was like my big introduction into hip-hop at a large level. And then I listened to some G Herbo, but even then I wasn’t really like -- I wasn’t really a fan of his approach to delivery. But I think it kind of grew on me because it’s like in terms of his lyricism and what he had to say and kind of like -- I agree with you, he like -- it’s easy to, I think, when one is rapping, kind of try and rap on beat. And I feel like he doesn’t make the effort to rap on beat, he just makes the effort to say what he wants to say.
17:04Thomas Downs: Yeah.
17:04Maceo: I think that in doing that, he has like what I would call was really an unconventional kind of delivery, which is why I didn’t like it. But at the same time, it’s just also like putting the whole beat in a whole new light because now it’s kind of more of like a staging for him rather than like something, I guess, more that he’s driving with. It feels more like he’s kind of using it rather than he’s trying to interact with it, which is still interacting with it, but not in the same way, I guess. Yeah. But I would say it really is those new and like novel ways of delivery, um, and even like production sometimes that are really fascinating to me if it’s not the lyricism. Like, I’ve been listening to so much New York drill music lately. Like, that’s really it. Like, Fivio Foreign, he just dropped his new album and Kanye executive produced it, and I was so hyped when I heard that because I have listened to drill beats for high like Like 6, like maybe like 4 months. I won’t say 6. Listening to drill rappers and drill beats though, at least since the summer. And like, like on and off all the time, like for more than a year. Um, but I would say like, like the Brooklyn drill scene, like Kay Flockin’, Being Honest, I would say -- actually, I think he’s from the Bronx, but, uh, like, like the music coming out of the Bronx, like, like early in the fall last year and even throughout the summer, I guess, was kind of what really put me on like sample drill. And I was like, whoa, this is really crazy. And then Kanye got involved in drill music. It’s kind of like you were saying, like, Like sometimes you just can’t help but like want to get involved in what’s going on with the music. And so for me, I was like, well, Kanye’s getting involved in drill music. I said, I knew this was it. And so I think that is really what I like about it. It’s like the -- like a call for involvement. Like it’s almost implicitly inclusive. I think music isn’t like -- you don’t have to make a noise. You can just dance to it. You can just be a part of the rhythm, be a part of the experience. Like you were saying earlier before we started, you can just vibe sometimes. Yeah. And like you’re not interrupting anybody else and no one’s interrupting you and you just get to be present. I think that sometimes that really does, it really is like freeing. Like I think sometimes in my head, you know, I just think like I meditate, I would say, while I’m just sitting here listening to whatever music I have on. And sometimes it’s like the most obnoxious rap music ever. But still what I’m thinking about is like, oh, I got to do this before I go to bed. I got to do this for class tomorrow. I got to make sure I call my grandma tomorrow as well. Like it’s like while I’m doing all these orderly things, I have some of this, some might call chaos going on in the background. Mm-hmm. But for me, I think that does provide some kind of peace and stability sometimes. Yeah. So I would say that’s kind of my relationship to music, is that it really is like something to come back to that I think is stabilizing for me in a lot of ways.
19:13Thomas Downs: Yeah.
19:15Maceo: So yeah, but I’m curious, like, for you, if you think like your relationship to the church, has it all like shaped your relationship to music as well?
19:22Thomas Downs: Yeah, because I think it’s one of those things where I’ve been getting a lot into gospel music because it’s something that in my church we, we love singing. It’s something that it’s It’s definitely grown on me where it’s like, when we have songs in the church, you have a certain measure of how long the song should be, but in our church, literally like the song where you would think it’s going to stop, and then we’ll start it all back over and just like keep going to the same chorus again and chorus again, and it’s a guy that he always has his little tambourine, and like I don’t think he’s ever missed a church service since I’ve always been going there because you always can hear his tambourine every time we’re singing a song, where it’s like, I always appreciated him. I don’t even remember his name, but I just know that he’s always there at church with his tambourine and hitting every song. And I feel like for me, it’s one of those things where I kind of fell in love with that aspect of church of actually listening to the lyrics and also seeing how much your mood can change with music. And I feel like a lot of times when I’m listening to certain rap music where it’s like, I’m not like on the block all the time and everything, so I can’t really relate to it as much. But certain things, um, in the gospel songs are just like, dang, bro, like I am hurting right now, but it’s like, oh, God’s filling me up and I’m doing this and that. And like, oh, do you want a revolution? What? What? I’m like, dang, okay, all right, maybe I do. And I just, you know, I start bobbing my head. Yeah. Like that’s another thing that kind of gets me going and gets me feeling stuff. And I feel like that’s one of the most beautiful things about music of how At least especially with the gospel music, it, it’s like you can start feeling something where it’s like you’re listening to it like auditorily, but your body is like all implicated like while you’re listening to it and you’re thinking about things a little bit more in depth. And like you just start like feeling everything from the music. And I feel like the way that music can really kind of spark, um, how you feel about things is just an amazing sight. And it’s one time like even being vulnerable like right now, like my grandma’s been going through a lot of stuff with like She has Alzheimer’s dementia, and I’ve kind of like seen her kind of like dwindle in a way. And it was one day where like she fell down the steps, and I heard about it like on my way home driving. And I always listen to music while I drive. Like, I know a lot of people probably do the same thing where it’s like I can’t pull off until I have music playing. And I normally like listen to rap music. I listen to gospel music only on Sundays normally because I try to focus my most attention on Sundays about those type of things and stay grounded in it. Um, and then other days I listen to gospel every once in a while, but more rap than anything else. Um, but it was like that day, I can’t remember exactly what day of the week it was, but I remember turning off the music and just driving silently. And I was just in my thoughts and just thinking about things like, dang, like my grandma, like my everything at this point, like, like just fell down the steps. Like, dang, she’s really going through a lot. And I parked the car and I turned on Break Every Chain by Tasha Cobbs. And I like sat there and was like crying for a little bit. I’m just like, Dang, like, because basically the song is basically saying like there’s power in the name of Jesus to break every chain. Like every chain that’s holding you back, every chain that’s like in your thoughts holding you back, every chain that’s like not allowing you the best version of yourself and things of that nature. And like, um, by the end of the song it says there is power, you can, you can break every chain. By the end of the song it says the chains are broken. Like, so it’s like a progression of like, you know, you got to recognize your chains that are holding you back, and then by the end of the song it’s almost like the chains are broken, like declare it now and saying like, hey, you’re gonna get through this, you’re gonna be okay, you’re gonna be feeling better than you once were. And I think the song itself just -- I just started crying. I don’t really cry often, but it was just one of those things where first things first, it’s unlike me to drive with no music. Then I finally parked the car and I’m ready to get out and I don’t even get out. I just start listening to the song and I’m just like, dang, like stuff is -- it’s all these chains holding me back. But then it’s like by the end of the song, it’s making me realize like, bro, I’m gonna be fine, like my grandma’s gonna be fine. And like that happened years ago and now she’s 89 years old, still walking around doing her thing. And it’s just like, wow, God is good in that moment. And it’s just like, bro, it’s crazy how the church and the music that they curate and produce is one of those things that, for me at least, made me fall in love with music all over again. Because not only does it have the flow that I like and the beats that I like some days, but it has those lyrics too that add on to that, make you feel something altogether. So I feel like the church definitely has like swayed the way that I view music in itself, and it’s just like, it’s just, it’s been nice, not only just in the church setting, but like even on my Spotify playlist now that I’ve been growing and trying to get more songs on my gospel playlist.
23:48Maceo: So I like that. You guys send me this gospel playlist.
23:51Thomas Downs: Yeah, I have to
23:52Maceo: because
23:53Thomas Downs: it’s good stuff on there.
23:54Maceo: I believe it. I really don’t listen to any gospel music, um, and something that I actually had a question, did you go to like the like the performance that Rocky created, like right before the -- we went home for COVID. She sang Break Every Chain. No, is that the song she was singing?
24:09Thomas Downs: Yeah, I think she did sing -- oh, I want to say yeah. I can’t remember exactly, um, but I know she did sing some gospel songs. And they had like Kirk Franklin was in there with his song Revolution, and that’s one of like the gospel staples because Kirk Franklin is one of those gospel artists that’s like world-renowned at this point. And they sing Revolution, which is one of those songs that like definitely like in the gospel community is like one of those world-renowned type of songs by a world-renowned artist that he brings people in and everything. So it -- I can’t remember exactly if that happened, but yeah, yeah, that, um, I can’t remember if that song specifically was in it, but it definitely was one of those good things.
24:49Maceo: No, that’s fair. Yeah, I’m pretty sure because I like -- I don’t listen to any gospel, but when you said Break Every Chain, I almost heard her voice in my head. Like, it really was beautiful. It was so beautiful, that whole event. Shout out Rocky.
25:01Thomas Downs: Yo, for real, shout out Rocky. She does amazing things.
25:04Maceo: Yeah, but I guess going from there, I think, how has like the church shown up for you in college now? Like the church music. We also talked already about vulnerability and being open. Like, let’s bring that into the present. What does that look like for you now?
25:20Thomas Downs: Yeah, I feel like it kind of goes into college in itself, especially coming here to F&M. In high school, I haven’t really been around so many diverse people. And normally when I think about diversity, I think ethnicity and race. But being here at F&M and especially taking psychology and sociology classes, diversity can mean a wide array of things of socioeconomic background, geography-wise, like so many different things that make people so diverse and like height, weight, like everything that can make someone different. Like it’s so many different people here at school. And I feel like it’s one of those things where it made me comfortable being uncomfortable. Because if I just kept putting up a garden, up a wall of every person I meet that was different than me, that would never like meet anybody, because every person that I’ve met is different. So I feel like, especially with FNM, it’s one of those things where I’ve always tried to stay around people that were like me, especially like those in the Christian community. That’s why I was part of DCF, where we were the Diplomat Christian Fellowship. We were able to -- Meet with like-minded people that are trying to work out their faith in college when a lot of people aren’t always doing that because there’s a lot of opportunities to do other things. But also being open to other people that aren’t in that community was something I really learned, where it’s like I can’t just shut myself off from the rest of the world just because they don’t believe in the same religion technically as me. Where I feel like to me it’s bigger than the religion of what you’re supposed to be doing, of doctrine and creed. It’s really a relationship with my higher power. And I feel like just because I have a relationship with my higher power, doesn’t mean that I shouldn’t be open to so many other people. And I feel like FNM has just been just a place where a lot of people call like America a melting pot. But for me, like my mom told me once that it’s really not a melting pot because we really don’t melt together and like become one America. It’s just not like how we’ve been. We’re more of like a salad bowl of like you’re the lettuce and like I’m the grape tomato over there. Like, which is really, it’s really more of like a salad bowl different people being in one area, but I’ve had some amazing salads that I love because they have the different things that are in there with like different cheese, different dressing, like different types of lettuce, of like iceberg lettuce versus spinach. Like salads can be totally great and beautiful, but they’re diverse in different ways. Not saying they melted together, but they’re great in their own ways. And I feel like F&M has allowed me to bring who I am and be comfortable in spaces knowing that I’m a Christian, but also being comfortable being uncomfortable around other people that I don’t technically know. But I think that’s, for me, is something I love, meeting new people, because I just get to learn so much about different people that I’m around. And I think that’s what F&M has allowed me to curate, all these different experiences with different type of people, which is like, just been amazing, honestly. Would you agree?
28:11Maceo: No, without a question, I would agree. I think that, like, you mean like a salad bar?
28:16Thomas Downs: Salad bowl, that’s what I meant. But yeah, a salad bar pretty much. So you just pick different things that come into it that make your, your salad. I guess some people just eat like salad by itself or salad with ranch or something like that. But yeah, I like to add different things like chicken on my salad, tomatoes, and I’ll add like different types of dressing. I’ll add cheese and like banana peppers, all this different type of stuff in my salad. But like, that’s kind of how I see it, as opposed to a melting pot. I feel like you want to melt together and just become one like American person. Like the diversity of it, it’s like kind of the best thing that we have going on.
28:51Maceo: I hear what you’re saying. Like, I follow. Okay, I wasn’t sure if I followed your analogy or metaphor, but I think I do. I was saying like a salad bar because I feel like there’s everything out there to explore and to incorporate if like however you want to. Um, but you don’t have to go anywhere, you just stay where you are and be all around the same thing. Um, but I think kind of what you’re saying is rather than like in a melting pot where everything kind of comes to be one thing. Like we’re in a salad where everything is very obviously and distinctly not the same thing. I think that does make a lot of sense. Yeah. Yeah, I think for me in my experience at F&M, I would certainly say like I think this is without a question the most socioeconomically diverse space I’ve been in. Just thinking about like the sheer number of people here and like the backgrounds people come from and like whether thinking about race, religion, gender, socioeconomic status, sexuality. I think there’s so many different things you can look to, like you were saying earlier, nationality, citizenship status, visa status, etc. I think so many of those things kind of shape what people are worried about while they’re on campus. And I think really getting a sense of that has been really eye-opening for me because I joined like a fraternity that was predominantly Jewish my freshman year. And I didn’t know that when I joined. It just kind of, which kind of was what it was. But --
30:01Thomas Downs: Yeah.
30:01Maceo: I’m an open person. I was kind of like, we’ll see what’s here for me. You know, is this a brotherhood worth joining? I guess I’ll find out and make the most of it. That’s just how I approach things.
30:08Thomas Downs: Yeah.
30:09Maceo: And there were some cool people I met there. Shout out Lior, shout out Abram and some of the other guys that were there as well. But like those -- that class of seniors really is what kind of made me really feel comfortable in that space and made me feel seen and feel like I could enjoy myself here and see myself as a member of this brotherhood. And kind of once they graduated, it was me and some underclassmen that I didn’t necessarily know as well, but that I was kind of like invested in getting to know. And that’s kind of like how I spent a lot of my time at the college was inside that space. And then after summer 2020, there was like this big march outside. George Floyd was killed and we just had a whole lot of new discussion about the overall state of racial justice in this country and at the global level even. And then I lived in the house last year, like after all that happened. And it was just like the summer was a whole lot of me thinking about that and kind of coming into a space where it didn’t really feel like that was necessarily where everybody else was coming from.
30:59Thomas Downs: Yeah.
31:00Maceo: Like the amount of regard people had for what was going on. when it came to racial justice was like very variable. And I think that was a bit unsettling to me because it wasn’t variable for me. Like, it just kind of was like very important. Yeah. And I don’t think there’s anything to be unhappy with about that. Like, I don’t think that’s an environment I would be in myself. I think that’s why I’m not living there this year in the Phi Psi house. But I think being around those people really did give me a sense of like what I wasn’t prioritizing for myself all the time, being in a space that I was always social. Like there were certain ways in which I would compromise, find myself code-switching, not necessarily like even saying the word nigga. Like I didn’t say that in that house very frequently. I loved rap music so much. I wouldn’t listen to that like after parties. I wouldn’t put it on when I was hanging out with my friends there. Maybe if I was hanging out by myself, like outside on the back porch, I might put it on. Or like if I was around people I knew were going to enjoy it. But other than that, I wasn’t super like -- I wasn’t as focused on the music, even though the music is always like where my head is at almost, if that makes sense. Right. And I think kind of coming to a place where I realized, even like I love to freestyle, you know, like my boy Jackson, like I freestyled with him so much like freshman and sophomore year.
32:02Thomas Downs: Yeah.
32:03Maceo: But never once I think about bringing that up like in Phi Psi. It just didn’t even cross my mind. I was like, oh, what are they gonna say? They’re gonna want that? Somebody didn’t even necessarily like rap music all the time. And so it was just kind of like, well, we’ll see. But I think last year kind of taking more time to acknowledge like how I was code switching and how there were places where I just wasn’t showing up as myself authentically all the time. Right. And taking time to be transparent about that and sharing that, you know, I love to freestyle with some of my friends there. I ended up freestyling with a good number of the guys in the house last year. And I really did enjoy and appreciate that. And getting to do that with them is something I really do hold dear from my experience of being in that house. Yeah. Because it was really me getting to invite them into -- like we were talking about music earlier -- into an experience that I think is really so cool because it does kind of put us in a common context. You know, we are just vibing and being together and enjoying ourselves and saying what we have to say or not. You know, some people don’t want to freestyle, but that’s fine too. It’s just like a common shared experience that I think is enjoyable. But I think Like, once again, going back to like everybody’s on a different page about things. And so it made me more curious, you know, like, well, like, what page are people on if they’re not on the same page as me? And I think that kind of goes back to what you were saying really early on about kind of listening to other people and getting curious about where they’re coming from and really being open to the fact that we can disagree. But like, what -- where does our disagreement stem from?
33:13Thomas Downs: Yeah.
33:13Maceo: As like a much more long conversation than, you know, you’re wrong and I’m right.
33:18Thomas Downs: Yeah.
33:18Maceo: And I think that really having And taking time and having the patience, I think, to be in those conversations is really what is worthwhile about being in a diverse space like this, that you really get to see, you know, why do we disagree about things like Israel and Palestine? I didn’t know what that was when I got here.
33:33Thomas Downs: Yeah.
33:33Maceo: And people were unhappy. I was like, dang, this conversation stresses people out. I was like, I wouldn’t even say now my understanding of the issue is super clear and concrete, but I think like issues like those are things that we can preview to that really do affect people on a really large level. and communities at a really large level that I never even really imagined, I feel like, when I was a kid. Like, I think about like the election, but I never thought about like geopolitics. Yeah. But I think being in a community where we have students from so many different backgrounds, so many different nationalities represented, so many cultures and languages represented, it’s really an opportunity to look into like what are the global perspectives on the issues and the things that we think are important, things that we are cool with, on music even, you know, like we’re talking about like what is music for, what does music afford us, what is music Like, not like, what should it not be? Yeah. I think everybody has a different opinion on that as well. And then kind of come back to the N-word, you know, everybody has their opinion on that as well. You know, that’s kind of, I think, what prompted me to think, like, I guess that’s really how I should make this podcast constructive, is thinking about, you know, why do our perspectives differ? And not like, like, you should be on my page, but like, you know, we’re all on different pages. That’s just the page we’re all collectively on. Like you’re saying, we’re in a salad bowl. It’s not much to do but like accept it, I think.
34:37Thomas Downs: Yeah.
34:37Maceo: And I feel like that’s been a big thing for me. FNM is kind of recognizing that it just is a salad bowl and trying to be something that I’m not in the salad bowl, it just gives me a weird flavor. Yeah, exactly. And I don’t necessarily even like that flavor, so why would I want to have to live my life inside something I don’t like?
34:53Thomas Downs: Exactly.
34:53Maceo: When I could be something that I enjoy. And if someone else doesn’t enjoy me, you know, let’s go on the same page about that too. Like, where do you see I can grow? Where do you think I can be more of a friend to you even? Because I think figuring out that has also been important for me. Like, who are my my friends, my dearest friends, who are the people that show up for me the most? And like, to what degree do I reciprocate? And for people who I appreciate and maybe don’t show up for me as much as I want them to, like, what is there for me to do anyway? Because I just care about that person and I want to show up for them in a way that lets them know I care about them. And I think like choosing, you know, who those people are, I think I should have some discretion. And I think kind of recognizing that we’re all on different pages, like you’re saying, in this salad bowl. me mixing analogies and metaphors, I guess, but we’re all on different pages. And me acknowledging that, figuring out like who in my life isn’t willing to accept that, because I don’t always have like the time or energy, you know, to give to people that don’t want to even accept we’re on different pages. Exactly. Because I think they don’t want to have a conversation that I think is important. I think not everybody should have to have the time or want to give the energy. Accepting that as well, you know, people aren’t wrong for that, but kind of accepting that. And if there’s people who I want to have in my life because they’re willing to be on the same page, or at least willing to work towards it, And we have people who I don’t want to prioritize for that same reason, and there are not necessarily interests or desire to prioritize those conversations. So we can growth grow in our relationship and we can build a relationship that really works for both of us. I would say it’s been a lot of -- a lot of -- I feel like how college and my relationship to being vulnerable and like being open at the same time has really been central for me. Because I really do feel like college has been like for me a training arc, a space to look at myself. Who am I? Who do I want to be? Yeah. And like quarantine, I think for that reason was so nice. I just had time to think about myself, where I was going, what I was majoring in, what classes I wanted to take.
36:35Thomas Downs: Yeah, yeah, I think I totally agree with that because I really resonated with a lot of the things that you said, and it kind of reminds me of like this story that happened to me on the football field actually. It was a time where one of the quarterbacks was running down the field, and normally when quarterbacks are running, they don’t like being hit. So normally they just run out of bounds while somebody’s coming. So like, I don’t come and just like smack them and hurt them at this point because a lot of times quarterbacks are important. So instead of the quarterback running out of bounds, and I slowed up because I’m thinking that at least I can just push him quickly out of bounds and it wasn’t going to be nothing big, he runs into me trying to run me over. And it was kind of almost disrespectful in a way because it’s like, bro, like you didn’t really gain anything from it. And he tried to hit me, um, and I didn’t really go anywhere because I mean, like, I still was like 10 toes down. And I had some weight on me at the time, so it wasn’t like he was gonna run me over, like this skinny quarterback. And then he came up to me and called me the B-word and was just like, yo, use it, use it, and all this kind of stuff. And then his teammate came, he’s like, oh, use a B, use a B, use a B. And I said, all right, bet. Like, I ain’t even say nothing, ’cause I’m like, ’cause I think I said something like, bro, if you don’t get in my face, like, it’s gonna be a problem or something like that. And then I went to the next play and he went to go run the ball and I hit him. and like flung him down for like a 3-yard loss. So I’m like, I’m pumped up and excited because he was talking all that stuff. And then I like tackled him and I would -- I stood over top of him and started cussing him out and like saying the N-word and all this kind of stuff. And one of my teammates came over and was like, bro, I’ve never heard you even say that before. You started calling him the N-word. He wasn’t even Black or anything like that. And it was the first time I really sat there and thinking about like, dang, bro, like he’s never literally heard me say the N-word. He’s never even heard me curse like that or anything like that. But it’s like, when I’m back home or in different settings, like, I use it like it’s like second nature and all that. I’m like, dang, that was the first time I really reflected on like, wow, like certain people I’m around where I don’t even use the same vernacular in certain settings. Mm-hmm. Where it’s like, I really start to reflect and think like, bro, I code switch all the time. Like, to me, I, I did a research project on it because it was just so interesting to me. Like, I feel like to me it’s something you could put on a resume to say that like, you know, I, I can change the way that I speak or I cognitively sometimes cognitively think about it, but sometimes I just naturally do it and not saying the N-word in certain settings. I mean, and it’s interesting because why do we do it? Like, research has said that code-switching technically defined it as like changing who you are, like your, your name, the hairstyle, the things you do, things that you say, and the way to behave for the purpose of having more success in doing things. And a lot of times when we code switch, like, why do I not say the N-word? Is that to help me be more successful, to be closer around my teammates or something? Like, why do I code switch? Like, and really let me reflect for a second. Like, why can’t I say certain things around them? Is that something that is like I cognitively think about because they’re going to view me a certain way? Like, they already know who I am. Like, I have a nickname of Pastor Tom. Like, whether I say the N-word or not, like, will I not be Pastor Tom anymore because of that? where it really just made me sit and reflect on like, why do I code switch? Because I feel like for me, it’s always a why behind why people do what they do. And I think that’s why, especially being a sociology psychology major, I really try to figure out that why behind everything. And sometimes I sit and reflect, especially over quarantine, like, why am I even like doing certain things? And I think that story in itself of like me just going off on a guy and like going off to the point where someone has never seen me like that, it’s kind of real interesting because that’s who I was. in different settings or who I am, like, well, before I, like, was on that football team at a certain time. So it was really just interesting to think of how certain environments bring certain things out of you, sometimes for better and sometimes for worse, I feel like sometimes, because it’s like, can I not be vulnerable around my football team? Like, why would I not just be myself? And it’s like, what makes me think that, like, are they not going to accept me the same way? And I feel like a lot of the guys on the team, like, are some of my closest friends, like, I’ve ever had. And it’s one of those things where I feel like it’s kind of me almost putting the pressure on myself of saying I have to change who I am. I can’t be myself and be vulnerable around these people because they’re going to view me a certain way. When in reality, I feel like that’s something I may have done to myself because that’s how society has always kind of told me that you’re a young Black man, you can’t do certain things. Like, it was -- I used to run around my neighborhood sometimes. Got it. try to stay in shape and I would put my hoodie on and go run around the block. And normally I used to do it like at night because I was always busy throughout the day. And my mom had to tell me one time like, hey, you can’t keep doing that. And I was like, what do you mean? I’m trying to stay in shape. I’m trying to run. And she was like, well, you can’t keep like running in a black hoodie at night. And I’m like, what do you mean? Like, I’m just going to run and like running around. She was like, well, people are gonna think like, oh, if you’re running around like in a hoodie, maybe you’re up to no good and they’re gonna like say something. And I’m like, bro, it’s like, What? Like, I can’t even go outside and run to stay in shape? And it’s just something I never even thought about, but my mom kind of was saying that, like, that’s the way society is portraying you, so don’t feed into that. And to me, it sucks because it’s like, now I kind of have to think about the things that I do, the things that I wear, the things that I say, when in reality, I feel like that’s society’s problem. Society is the one that has the problem of stereotyping me. Like, you don’t even know me and you’re trying to say certain things or trying to call the police because I’m running. Like, if you knew me, you would know that I’m a very goal-oriented, like, driven person that loves to work out and, like, was trying to stay in shape for my football season and trying to be the best version of myself instead of portraying something on me. Where I feel like a lot of times, like, I’m putting the pressure on myself because society has created it. But if we can change society to think like, hey, just because I’m Black doesn’t mean that I’m a certain way. Just because I’m a Black male doesn’t mean I’m a certain way. I think that needs to flip itself on the head because it just sucks that I have to change who I am to be successful in the way, the way that definition of code-switching is. Because that just doesn’t make as much sense to me that I can’t be vulnerable in certain settings. I can’t be who I am and be comfortable in certain settings because I think that that’s the way society needs me to be, which kind of, I don’t know, it kind of sucks to kind of think about it in that way. I don’t know if I even like answered the question, but --
42:57Maceo: I think you did. I think you spoke to a whole lot of things. And I think kind of what you were saying about like being on your football team, feeling you can’t be yourself, or like the world has these ideas about you, kind of comes down to -- I mean, kind of lands back again on like why my, my notion about the word nigga is so central in this podcast. Because I feel like it does come down somewhat to assimilation. Like, do we -- like, people have reclaimed the word, people use it every day.
43:20Thomas Downs: Yeah.
43:20Maceo: Um, and then we enter a certain kind of space and it’s like, oh, we don’t say this here, we shouldn’t say this. Um, but is that -- should the collective attitude be in the first place we don’t say this? I think that’s, that’s not a conversation that’s, that’s so open and shut as some people kind of make it out to be. And people are where they are once again, so I’m not here to tell people what they should think. But right, in my opinion, I think there is a lot more of a conversation to be had. So what does that word mean to you?
43:44Thomas Downs: I think for me it’s all -- it’s been Because my mom always told me that if you curse, then you just don’t have the vocabulary to say things that you really want to say. And I feel like that’s why I didn’t curse for a while. And then after a while, it kind of just happened because it’s what everyone did that I was home with. It was just you said the N-word, you cursed, you said certain things. And that’s just how it was. It just became second nature and vernacular in the way you spoke. And it wouldn’t be something that I would say to a teacher at the time, or it wouldn’t be something that I would say to my mom or like family members, so I knew how to turn it off. But it was one of those times where when I first heard the word, it was just like I didn’t really think much about it because it was just, it was a normal thing. And then I was in different settings, like even coming here of like, should I not say this? Like, should I say this? And I really start having to learn about like where it came from and the -- The origination of like where it like derived from and like the, the Negro type of thing of like why certain people used it and who used it and like in what capacities and what settings it was used. And then I’m hearing a lot of people say let’s flip it on its head and like let’s use it because it’s our word now. Now we’re just going to use it because that’s, um, who we are, um, is, is real interesting because I, I know I’m still struggling with trying to really understand Like, not just how I feel about it, of like, should I use it? Should I not use it? And the biggest thing for me, is it a derogatory term? Like, I think that’s what a lot of people say. Like, when a lot of people used it back in the day, they used it as a derogatory term. Like, you didn’t want people to call you that. However, like, now if we’re using it in the way what they’re using it now, is it now okay? Um, and I think it was a Boondocks episode where -- And I think this happened in real life, if I’m not mistaken, but the teacher was interviewed and said like, yeah, I said the N-word, but he was like, it’s a difference because I didn’t say it with the -er. I just said like, nigga, instead of saying the N-I-G-G-E-R. And it was like, bro, if I use it just in that way, it’s like I’m just saying, what’s up, bro? I’m saying, how you doing? It’s a regular thing, but I say it with a hard -er, then it’s like, oh snap, you meant that in a certain way. So do I say it differently to mean different things, or is it derogatory term? Is it not? Like, is it something I should use? Is it something I shouldn’t use around friends? Like, should I use it only around my Black friends and call them that, or is it something I can use around my white friends or other ethnicities that can’t use the word the way society is saying it? So it’s like, I’m still like up in the air of like how I feel about it, to be honest. Like, so where are you kind of at it?
46:28Maceo: it kind of comes down not so much -- like, I think like you were saying, like in the Boondocks episode, like the teacher, he’s like, I’m just saying, bro. I don’t think that’s really how I see it at all. Yeah. Like, I think like people in society aren’t just like, oh, you said nigga, like, that’s fine, you’re just saying bro. I think there’s a whole lot more of -- it can be a cultural weight. I don’t really know how to necessarily describe it, but I think there is, like, like you were saying, in certain Black communities, a practice of saying like nigga all the time, like without much discretion, without much regard for when you’re saying it, like something I have worked on while being in college actually is not letting the times that I say nigga to someone be like when I’m angry. Like you were saying on the football field, when you just like say the word, like it’s like you don’t have to think about it. Like that’s just like you’re angry, that’s what you’re calling this person. But it’s like, that’s actually the last precedent I want to set for people.
47:14Thomas Downs: Yeah.
47:14Maceo: Is that like this is a word for us to use with hostility. Because for me it really is like, I think, an endearing term. Like when I think of people who call me like, yo, what’s up my nigga? Like those people whom I trust super well, people whom like I see as like my brothers, my family, the people whom I just care deeply about and whom I sense have a regard for me, at least in some way that we can’t doubt, or at least that I don’t doubt, that I don’t question. And I think that’s kind of what it comes down to for me, which is kind of, I think, abstract. But I think the -- that’s kind of once again why I think this whole notion of the we/them, Nick, is so different because it’s like one where we’re using it but to promote something. And I don’t think it’s something bad at all. It’s promoting an attitude towards this existence that I have, which is all the time implicitly Black. Right. And kind of make sense of what that means for me as a Black man, which only further complicates things, another dimension of my existence. Like what that even means. Some people say like, oh, it’s a very masculine thing. And that’s fair. I used to walk around being like, oh, there’s niggas and there’s bitches, because I listen to music all the time. Those are the words they use. I was like, I guess. And I was like, I don’t really like having this dichotomy in my head.
48:16Thomas Downs: Yeah.
48:16Maceo: And that’s not really something that I walk around saying.
48:19Thomas Downs: Exactly.
48:20Maceo: But it’s something I thought about like in high school. I was like, what is this? Like, I feel like this -- like, I don’t mind saying nigga. I don’t really feel offended by that, but I feel like I probably shouldn’t walk around like with this dichotomy. Yeah. Um, I think that I kind of have stepped away definitely from that dichotomy. I kind of have -- 100% I have. Um, I think that like we’re talking in my African-American literature class today, we just finished reading Sula, um, and Sula gets called a bitch and a witch inside that story. Um, and Professor Bernard, he was talking about -- Professor Patrick Bernard, shout out to him -- he was talking about how, like, these 2 terms are used to describe women when they stand outside of the patriarchal norms into which we suppose they should be fitting. And that’s kind of what the term is meant to characterize and speak to. And I was like, wow, that’s absolutely not a notion I want to be walking around like recreating for people. Yeah. When in fact that patriarchal structure, I think, is already so -- like, as one I would say I condemn, I feel like stand against one I think is one that should not persist into the future and one that I would like to think I don’t enable in my everyday life. Mm-hmm. Which isn’t at all the attitude I had when I was listening to that music in high school. It’s kind of like, oh, this is what they’re saying, it kind of is what it is. But I think like when it comes to the N-word, like I do have friends that are women that say that word that are of color and like, and like call me that and I’m like, yeah, that’s fine. And like I call them that and it’s not like an insult. It’s not a bother. It really is kind of like Like, yo, bro, hand me this. Like, yo, my friend, hand me that. It’s like one that I think kind of signifies really being on an even playing field. Like, there’s no hierarchy. This is like a community of niggas. That’s really all it is. And like anybody who’s really not inside that circle has either chosen not to be inside that circle or doesn’t see the circle as one worth being in.
49:58Thomas Downs: Yeah.
49:58Maceo: But it’s not one that you’re going to be like pushed out of, at least not in the way that I think about it. And so I think, I don’t know, for me, the N-word is just like a word that speaks to my existence. But that I think can apply to anybody’s existence. But I think it’s up to people to think about like what that means. Like, I think it’s like, like, what is your vegetable? Like, what is your role in the salad? And, you know, what, what are the particular characteristics of living life like you are this part of the salad? Like, if you’re a tomato, what is life as a tomato?
50:24Thomas Downs: Yeah.
50:24Maceo: And understanding like how you benefit from things and also like how you don’t benefit from things and taking time to really account for those things and stand inside of a context which you feel is like appropriate and I don’t want to say righteous, but I think just. And that’s kind of how I tried to think about the N-word. I used to like, I’m that nigga all the time. I used to hear Wabi Namir, I’m pretty sure he said that. Yeah. I was like, yeah, I’m that nigga. I won’t ever change. I was like, yeah, I like that. He’s resilient. He’s 30. He’s gonna do it for the long haul. I like that. That’s how I like to think of myself. If there’s a challenge in front of me, all it means is it’s time for Maseo to take a training arc to figure out how do we overcome these obstacles that are in front of us? there’s no reason to stay where we’re at when we got all this time to kill.
51:07Thomas Downs: Definitely. Yeah. Yeah, I think it’s because I’ve heard a lot of women use the B-word a lot in different ways though, where it’s like if you call someone the B-word, but then in a derogatory term, it’s like, oh, you’re offending me. But also like saying like, that’s my B, like, oh, chill B, like, or it’s like something where it’s almost like something you call a friend, where I feel like sometimes the N-word is used in a certain manner where it’s like certain people will use it, um, to be in, in its like racist connotation in terms of like it really meaning something that it, it really can hurt someone’s feelings. But I feel like in other times, like in certain capacities, people are using it just, just like use it as, as a word that should be used. And I think, do you think we, do you think we should or could ever get to a point where we Don’t use the word? Like, is it something where the word itself -- will we use another word for it where it’s like the word just doesn’t have to be used anymore? Or do you think it’s almost like can become a good thing, like, in the long run of like just having the word around for people that, that want to be included in that space and want to use the word?
52:20Maceo: Um, I mean, I think it could go away, but I think it’s just so unlikely. Like, it’s a word. It’s not like a language. Like, I think languages die. Like, words are forever documented and exist. And like, N language, it’s alive. People are gonna know what it means. You’re gonna have the etymology, the history of that term. And I think like, honestly, I don’t think it’s really worthwhile trying to get the whole world to stop saying the N-word when there’s just so many other things I think are much more pressing when it comes to racial justice. And you look at the prison industrial complex and you look at like the, the lopsided funding around public schools at the state level. Yeah. I think it’s just like, there’s so many more things for us to be doing to create a more just society than trying to police like how we talk to one another so that we all feel comfortable. And I think we should be cognizant of how we speak to one another and how we speak. I think that’s so important, but I don’t think like -- I’m probably not gonna stop saying it. Like, I don’t think it makes any sense for me to stop doing that. There’s so many other things that I think I should prioritize more than trying to get rid of something that I feel is so central to my identity.
53:16Thomas Downs: Yeah. Okay.
53:17Maceo: And I think even like you were talking about, about the word bitch, I think it is also an important word because I feel like it has a history and like people don’t use it. I mean, some people definitely do use it. I don’t feel very comfortable using it in like a super casual way. But I think there are compliments that come with that term as well. People like, I’m a boss-ass bitch.
53:33Thomas Downs: Yeah, yeah.
53:34Maceo: I call myself a boss-ass bitch. And honestly, I take it -- I feel that way. Yeah. I did that. Like, I just feel proud of myself. And I think that it’s, it’s different when you’re acknowledging someone and when you’re insulting someone. I think that oftentimes you can tell the difference based on how someone speaks to you. And the context of the conversation being had. So I think like that’s always going to be what’s important for me with the N-word as well. It’s like the context, the motivation behind the word, and kind of how are we holding ourselves accountable for using, engaging in each other, engaging with each other in ethical ways and in ways that we feel are kind and intentional rather than ways that are like not thoughtful and mean.
54:13Thomas Downs: You know Isaiah Cherry? Yeah, I mean, because since we live together, it was one time we were watching YouTube with just MJ stuff. Wow, he was an amazing person. Like, the music that he’s made is just like -- it doesn’t even make sense. Like, the dance move that he’s done, like, the, the type of pull he had, like, not just on our country but in society. Like, I remember his video that people laugh about where it’s like, he was like, everyone was clapping, he was just sitting there. Didn’t move, and then like just snapped his head back, and like people started passing out. Like, he didn’t even do any dance moves. Like, all he did was just go from here to here, and everyone’s like, oh my God, MJ! I’m like, bro, it’s just like, he’s an amazing -- like, and a lot of the songs that he’s sung too are just like powerful in certain ways. Like, gotta start with The Man in the Mirror. What? Man in the mirror, oh yeah, asking him to change his way. I’m just like, whoa, what? That’s just crazy.
55:27Maceo: No, I do agree. I think that’s a phenomenal song. It’s probably one of my favorite Michael Jackson songs.
55:31Thomas Downs: And Brownie’s just like, I don’t know, he’s one of those people that really left a mark on the world. Yeah, best way to put it. Best way to put it right there.
55:41Maceo: Yeah, I agree with that.
55:42Thomas Downs: Made his mark on the world for the better in a lot of ways.
55:50Maceo: Undeniably.
55:52Thomas Downs: Did we really think about it? Like, I sometimes -- I hate when people compare like artists and stuff because I feel like it’s hard for anyone to ever compare to Michael Jackson.
56:02Maceo: I think it’s even like before streaming, that’s like the biggest thing. Is that like Michael Jackson was like the biggest artist in the world before we had the internet.
56:11Thomas Downs: Think about it. Like his views --
56:16Maceo: That’s actually better to say.
56:17Thomas Downs: Like, bro, on YouTube, um, it’s amazing because when we were watching the YouTube video, like, he had like -- he had to have some type of record of how many views he had on that video. I know it’s been older, so a lot of people have time to watch it, but the fact that so many people went back and like watched videos of him live in concert, like actual videos of his songs -- he was one of -- he said he was one of the first to really have music videos that were huge productions that lasted like 5 minutes, 5 to 6 minutes. Like, he was one of the first to really do that. It was so pivotal. Yeah, it was like pivotal in, in the fact that I think -- I don’t think Thriller was the first one, but it was one of those that really changed the game of how you really make music videos and do things that way, where like he kind of like started like a revolution in a certain aspect with that. And well, that’s just something I’ve heard. I’m not sure exactly how fact-checked that is, but it was just like, bro, like he’s done some amazing things, not just in his dance, not just in his singing, not just growing up, like, in his background with the Jackson 5 and his whole family and stuff that happened with his dad and everything. Like, he just did a lot of things.
57:33Maceo: I
57:34Thomas Downs: don’t know,
57:36Maceo: he set a lot of precedents.
57:37Thomas Downs: Yeah,
57:38Maceo: definitely broke the ceiling in a lot of ways.
57:40Thomas Downs: Literally. It’s impressive.
57:42Maceo: Yeah, I agree, to
57:43Thomas Downs: say the least. It’s impressive.
57:46Maceo: Undeniably. I think it’s even like something I think is cool about like the internet and like internet content. It’s just like people aren’t even necessarily going back to watch it. People are seeing it for the first time sometimes. But like 20 years later, you can see it for the first time. Like somebody else, like my first time might be yesterday and my kids won’t be for who knows how long. Yeah, exactly. But like the impact that those new ideas can have on us doesn’t really change. It might be different for each person, but it’s still an impactful idea, you know, that we get to have. Like in the Man in the Mirror song, for example, like For everybody, that’s profound. If I’m going to start trying to make a change in the world, really the person who I have the most control over, the thing I have the most control over is myself. And where am I looking to see where I’m not at my strongest, where I’m not the proudest of who I am? And taking time to spend some time thinking about that and working on that, thinking about what in this place in my life, what in that part of my life can I change?
58:40Thomas Downs: Kind of even going back to why music is so profound. like, it’s just amazing in that, in those type of like ways and stuff.
58:48Maceo: Yeah. And I think even like, like something I tell people about hip-hop, but something I love about it is like, there really is no other medium where you get the perspectives of young men of color documented, um, in such a volume. Like, like they’re not, they’re not putting out pamphlets, not putting out zines, they’re not putting out podcasts. Yeah, like by the thousands. But you can go on SoundCloud and hear a lot of dudes talk about Anything.
59:12Thomas Downs: Yeah.
59:13Maceo: And maybe never hear anything super profound, but you might hear producers you never heard of, would have never heard of, um, but that take inspiration from so many different things. It’s just like, uh, I got Citricine. I think that, that just -- I don’t know, but like operates also as a record of so much personality and culture and perspective that I think really is nowhere else found in the same way.
59:35Thomas Downs: Yeah, yeah. I think that -- I feel like certain people have a certain like negative connotation with like rap and hip-hop because of what it promotes in certain ways. But a lot of people that rap about certain things kind of have lived in old block, like they’ve lived in those environments where it’s like it’s hard to not use this type of rap or form of art as an outlet to like kind of say certain things of like where I am in life and what I’ve gone through and like what I’ve experienced, like, and what I’ve -- like who I am. So it’s like crazy to say that like Oh, you shouldn’t rap about certain things. Like, like, now you’re policing like what I’m rapping about and stuff? Like, hey, like, how am I -- I’m especially a lot of authentic rappers of what they’re saying lyrically is like stuff they’ve been through, stuff they’ve been going through, and they’ve been using it as an outlet to kind of use pen and paper or use a form of art in music to kind of like talk about their experience and like who they are as people and like what they’ve been through, which is really interesting to me.
1:00:31Maceo: I think so. It’s really like, like I said, there’s not really anywhere else you can get the same kind of window into like Black life, and at least in a contemporary sense. You can go on like TikTok or people’s stories, but there’s a lot of places where you get inauthentic representation. Um, and I think just having a whole new space to explore, to look for authentic representation, is really what’s exciting about hip-hop as well, because you get one more place to, you know, sift through, which maybe isn’t what you want to be doing. Mm-hmm. But I think, you know, when you find like the gold there, I was like, wow, it was really worth it, you know? I have a song on SoundCloud that I probably had there for 4 years now that if I weren’t spending ample hours on SoundCloud at that point in my life, I would have never had at all.
1:01:06Thomas Downs: Yeah, exactly.
1:01:07Maceo: You know, but sometimes you really do appreciate taking the time to listen and be present like that. But I think going back to like you were saying, like now we’re policing what we’re saying, I mean, that kind of ties back into this notion of the inward we were talking about before and like, you know, why we do or don’t say things. something that’s really important is like why we think about or how we think about why we do or don’t say or why who can and can’t say it. Because I was reading this story today for my Contemporary Jewish Voices class, which I was kind of prompted to take kind of in response to like being in my fraternity. Like I was saying, like what page are people on? And I feel like, like I said earlier, like I had no idea of like Israel and Palestine. Hmm. But for some people in my fraternity, you know, it’s something they talk about pretty frequently and that’s been an ongoing part of their life. But there are parts of my life where geopolitics isn’t what we give attention to. And then coming back to this conversation about the N-word, if we’re not saying the N-word, what are we giving our attention to? Are we giving our attention to policing what we do and don’t say, or are we giving our attention to policing how our society operates at a real consequential and structural level? And who are our policymakers, and why are they our policymakers? How did they get to be there? What are the choices they’re making, and what are their motivations for those choices? And are they people who are acting like for democracy and for the people of this country, or are they acting for themselves or other interests that maybe we’ll never even know the names of? But I think those are really important things for us to start paying attention to. I think that’s part of my podcast as well, is like wanting this to be my foray into journalism and thinking about like, where is our attention at and where is it not? And, you know, where is it really, uh, scary for us to not be giving attention? And I think when it comes to the N-word, it’s like who’s saying it isn’t like my biggest concern. I’d say my biggest concern is like who is only not saying it.
1:02:51Thomas Downs: Yeah, yeah.
1:02:51Maceo: Um, and who could be doing so much more. Um, because like it is part of history and like people might say, oh, you shouldn’t say it, but it’s like that’s not like what’s first and foremost in my life. I think why that, that reading I was doing today is important to me is because it was kind of talking about this, uh, this guy Suraev and these yeshiva children and this one other gentleman who comes with him to this community in Woodinville, New York, as like more like evidently Jewish than the already existing Jewish community there. And that Jewish community’s kind of pushed to get this man and these children to leave because they’re so evidently Jewish and because of the efforts they’ve put in to assimilate into this Protestant community who really didn’t even start letting them move into this area until the war began in Europe and kind of those people started to have more sympathy for Jewish communities around them. But even then, like, this Jewish community has found that they needed to compromise and do away with some of their self-expression or cultural expression that wasn’t necessarily appreciated by the Protestant community there. And likewise, at least according to the narrator, we see that the Protestant community has also kind of stepped away from some of their expression. But for whom? Like, the people whom are doing that first and foremost and being asked in this story is this man, you know, who wears this very evident Jewish outfit, the suit, the hat, the pants, the white shirt, and these socks. But as we come to find out in the story, this is all this man has. Mm-hmm. You know, it’s what he arrived here seemingly in the U.S. with. And you see these children are traumatized. They run every time this guy, Eli, our narrator, shows up there to ask to speak with the sheref, who’s kind of like the head of the school, about whether or not they’re gonna stay in this community. Because the Jewish community there is like, you know, if you’re not gonna assimilate, you really can’t be here because you’re a danger to us all. We’ve already put in the effort to not make ourselves targets, and you kind of instigating in this way is something that we just don’t wanna see. That’s not who we are here. This is the 20th century. We have laws even, you know, like you can’t have a boarding school in a residential area. But that motivation isn’t about like laws, and Eli knows that. It’s pretty interesting. It’s like a conflict inside our protagonist, you know. And by the end of the story, he’s like gotten this man who walks around in his all-black outfit to switch into like his nice new suit that he had, that his wife had bought for him, this green suit. And he walks around the town and it’s all well and good, but at the same time, Eli has to reckon with the fact that now this man, who all he had was this suit, you know, as like to remember the life into which he was born. Like, that’s all he had to remember that life by, aside from like these kids who were traumatized and run away every single time Eli even steps foot in this space. Mm-hmm. And this man Suraev, who’s trying to, you know, just take care of everybody and create a home for them, and asking them to, you know, do away with this expression because, you know, like it doesn’t work for everybody else. It’s like kind of asking them to assimilate and like asking them to give up part of their self-expression, which really, like, they should have no reason to be expected to not maintain, you know, if they really get to be themselves. You know, if we’re all inside this salad and we just are so, you know, are vegetable, all have our role to play per se, then who are we to tell others not to play the role that they perceive as theirs to play?
1:06:08Thomas Downs: Right.
1:06:08Maceo: And by the end of the story, you really see that for Eli, this is like a bit much because he ends up putting on this suit, you know, after having, you know, through his life already compromised being inside this space. And for the sake of having, you know, some peace and harmony, which he has to admit to himself is also what Suref and these children, this man, have also come to this part of New York for. They’ve come to finally have like a respite, uh, you know, they come to have a break finally, um, from all of the unease and the being worried about who’s watching and who’s looking, who knows, and like just like be able to exist, you know, and live and, and live out life. Um, and that’s what his community is all about. But at the same time, they’re like, but you can’t do that here because of how you’re expressing yourself. And I think Eli finally comes to terms with the fact that asking them to assimilate is really asking them to accept that in this part of the world, like, like discrimination in this way is acceptable. And I think that by the end of the story, he kind of gets that, like, he’s selling out on himself in a lot of ways by, by being willing to live inside this world and ask people to give up their expression, even though it’s really all they have coming into this new community and space. And so, you know, he puts on this suit and he runs around the whole town, even goes into the hospital where his wife is getting born -- being born -- where his wife is giving birth, rather. I mean, and like, still, it’s like being told by people of his Jewish community, like, hey, you shouldn’t be wearing that. Like, you’re crazy. Like, why are you wearing that? But I think what he’s really identified is that, like, the issue isn’t that I am me. The issue is that I’m being asked not to be me.
1:07:36Thomas Downs: Right.
1:07:36Maceo: I feel like that’s really what kind of sits with me as we kind of wrap up this podcast episode is thinking about, you know, when people say, hey, you can’t say the N-word, or you shouldn’t say the N-word, it’s just someone else telling me why I can’t be me. And I’m not saying it’s that when like Black people ask people who aren’t Black, or people of color ask people who aren’t of color not to say the word, are doing that. But I think that when, uh, people assert that no one should be able to say it, or that no one should say it, like there are people for whom like that word means a whole lot. And sometimes maybe even be all they have to think about like what they can appreciate in their lives. And I think that doing that is kind of overstepping. Mm-hmm. And I think I kind of want to be like Eli, I think, with this podcast and kind of doing that run, you know, like everybody’s like, oh, you can’t say it, you shouldn’t say it, we don’t want to talk about that word. It’s like, well, why don’t we talk about it? Like when I come to campus and I don’t say it in Phi Psi or you don’t say it on the football team, like, I would assert to some extent likewise, you know, we want to be comfortable in that space. We want to feel like we’re not offending the community that we’ve just chosen to be a part of. Mmhmm. But I think it’s better to choose to be around people who want us to be around regardless of how we’re being and accepting of who we are always, you know? Like who I am always, someone that hears that word and thinks of the people who have been around me when that word has been like a joy to say. When it comes on in a song and everybody’s singing along, like YBN LUMIER, I’m that nigga, I won’t ever change. Like if I’m with 6 friends and we all heard that for this, like together, even that could be a memory that’s near and dear to me when I hear that word. I think some people just don’t take time to understand all the nuance that comes with meaning and sense-making in the world and with words and our relationship to words. But I think that words that are a part of culture are not words that we can really easily erase or that we should even try to erase.
1:09:16Thomas Downs: Yeah.
1:09:17Maceo: I think there’s just so much more to the conversation to be had and that we shouldn’t feel like we need to assimilate. We shouldn’t feel like we need to give up parts of ourselves to just be in a community. And I think community is asking us to do that. Um, it’s a community that really needs more work put into it, invested into it, so that it can be operating at a higher level and just have more self-expressed people. Because I think that’s really when productivity happens, when people get to be themselves and get to see what they want, you know, talk about what they want. Because we all have things that we want, um, you know, and like, why shouldn’t we be able to actualize those things?
1:09:48Thomas Downs: Yeah, yeah. I think it’s one of those things too, um, a lot about like the acceptability and feeling a sense of belonging of saying like, hey, I I want to adapt or assimilate to certain areas and kind of change the way who I am so I can be welcomed and be accepted and feel like I belong in certain spaces. But I feel like that kind of sucks to say that I have to change who I am in order to be accepted, in order to feel like I belong, in order to the point where I really can’t be my true authentic self around certain people. And I think when I was saying that about the football team, it was one of those things where Um, like certain songs that I would listen to, do I listen to them differently than I’m listening to with my other friends? Um, and I feel like for me that’s just a guard that I put up. Like I was saying that because society was always telling me that, hey, don’t be that like person around other people because they’re gonna view you a certain way. But I feel like over time I realized that those guys that I go to war with on the football team will also go to war with me like off the football field. So why not just be my authentic and, and, and The true self of who I am, and they’re gonna accept me either way. But I feel like I had that guard up at first because I wanted to be accepted. I wanted to feel like I belonged certain places and certain spaces. But I feel like it’s always to that point where it’s like we have to give up a certain part of ourselves in order to get to that point, where I feel like that’s really the harsh reality of where a lot of people are. But I feel like when we keep surrounding ourselves with people that are accepting that we are different, that are accepting of who you are. And like I try to say, embracing the diversity that we have and we bring to the table, I think is real important because I feel like it’s hard to go in different places and trying to be different than who you really are because that’s just not how we should really go about life. Because I feel like that’s just not the beauty in life. The beauty in life is our difference. The beauty in life is that we bring different things to the table. The beauty in life is that you may have a strength whether I’m weak. Like, that’s -- those are the things that are beautiful about, like, where we are as people, as humans, as Homo sapiens, like, and, and how we’ve curated our society to be. And I think is the more that we’re able to be authentic and stopping policing the way people are and how they express themselves and how they become who they are, that’s kind of how we get to a better place in life where I can go into places not having to even think about what songs I should or shouldn’t listen to, what I should or shouldn’t say in spaces. And that’s, that’s kind of -- not exactly sure exactly how we get there, but I would love to get to that point where it’s like we don’t have people policing who I am or what I should say just so that I’m looked at a certain way and feel that I accept or belong. Like, I want to be able to step into a space and say, I can be myself and I belong here.
1:12:38Maceo: Yeah, and even to the point, I think, where it’s like we don’t -- we’re not self-conscious to the point where we’re even trying to police ourselves.
1:12:44Thomas Downs: Yeah, exactly. And it’s almost like we’re doing a lot of things for other people, and it sucks to say that society of certain people are swaying who we are so often and like telling me I should or shouldn’t do these things. And it’s almost like they have so much power over us. Like, I feel like I need to take back my own power of like who I am or who I want to be and who I deep down in my heart know that I am. And it sucks that sometimes I gotta take certain coats of who I am off in certain spaces, when in reality it’s like I want to come as my full authentic self in a lot of spaces. And, um, I want to have the power back. I want, I want the power to be who I
1:13:25Maceo: am. Yeah, snaps to that. Me too. I think a lot of -- I think people in society really want that. And I really can’t speak for everybody, I guess, but I know that’s like what I want. Like, any times where I do feel like disempowered or like self-conscious, like the last thing I actually want to feel is self-conscious. Yeah. Like, I just want to be able to be myself, walk around, do what I got to do, and appreciate that I have the opportunity to do that. But some days it’s not the case. Some days, you know, my anxieties, my stresses can be more stifling than that. But I think taking back, like you’re saying, the power for myself to just start my day, you know, and like, this is what I got to do, this is what I want to do. and do it is something that I think people do. And I guess that maybe that goes back to how we make money, how we have to put our energy into making money and that exchange. And like whether the things that we end up doing for money are really what we want to be doing or things we feel like we have to be doing to cover our bases. Right. And because if you’re not covering your bases, like who is? Exactly. I think in this society. Um, but I think that’s also part of my, my interest in starting this podcast. There’s really nothing I can that I’d rather be doing with my time than talking to people, learning about people, um, and having conversations that I think are worth having while I’m alive and I get to have them, um, with the people around me. You know, some people want to go to space. I just want to get some people around me. I think there’s a lot of time, a lot of opportunity in that, and a lot of learning you get to do as well, especially like on our campus where you have so many people from so many different backgrounds and so many differences to unpack and explore and understand the significance of.
1:14:50Thomas Downs: Yeah, yeah, definitely. kind of going back to what I was saying, is the reason why I love the premise of this podcast is really because we’re able to flip this on its head of, of saying let’s be comfortable being uncomfortable, like I said before, and getting to the point of this is something that we shied away from, like, um, and haven’t wanted to really talk about or really understand the why behind why do I have to change who I am, why do I not want to even talk about why we should or should not say the N-word, like why are there certain things that That make me think that I shouldn’t say this word? Why are certain people that are trying to police me on it? And I think that’s one of the conversations that really aren’t being had as much. It’s more just saying, hey, this word is bad, don’t say bad words. When in reality, it’s like, it means something to certain people. Like, it does have a strong and long lineage and history of what the word means and how it can be used now. And I feel like that’s something that we don’t sit and talk and think about. And I love how we’re kind of flipping it on its head and saying we’re gonna hit it head-on and say, hey, instead of shying away from something, we’re gonna, we’re gonna talk about it, and then we’re gonna hear different perspectives on it, and we’re gonna not even like have a certain goal of come to a complete understanding on it, but we’re gonna, we’re gonna talk about it, we’re gonna understand it, we’re gonna think about it in depth in ways that we haven’t before, which I think is real important. And I love that approach. to situations such as this.
1:16:15Maceo: I’m excited by the fact that you’re excited about it because, like I told you before, like, this could have been the Masea Watley Podcast. I’m like, well, We Them Niggas, should that really be the name? Yeah, what are they going to think about that? My parents gonna like it? Honestly, I didn’t think my parents would like it, but like, I don’t know, what are people going to think? What is society going to think? Is this a name that’s going to get me the listeners that I want, or like the audience that I might aspire to have? But I think it’s kind of like I don’t want to have to compromise. If I can’t have the We Them Niggas podcast on Spotify, it’ll be on SoundCloud. Yeah, like, it’ll just be what it is, you know? There’s nowhere else to find it. People are gonna have to come here, um, to get what we create. Yeah, that’s kind of my attitude about it.
1:16:51Thomas Downs: That’s amazing. I appreciate the space that you’re creating because it’s a, it’s a great platform to, to not only talk about things and help ourselves but create a greater dialogue. And I feel like that’s, that’s kind of what this is. is really doing. It’s letting people think about things that we may or may not have wanted to think about before, but we probably need to think about sooner or later.
1:17:12Maceo: Yeah, we have to admit that there are certain things that don’t work for us. Yeah, and they don’t work for other people even.
1:17:17Thomas Downs: Exactly.
1:17:18Maceo: Work too nicely for us.
1:17:20Thomas Downs: Exactly.
1:17:20Maceo: And being willing to take responsibility and accountability inside that reality. But that’s really all I have for this podcast episode, Thomas. I really want to thank you again for coming on here. I’m letting this episode, second episode only of the We Them Niggas podcast, be with you and the Come As You Are podcast and having it be a crossover nonetheless, which I’m really excited about.
1:17:41Thomas Downs: Yeah.
1:17:41Maceo: You definitely are someone I really enjoy speaking to. You have a whole lot of perspective. And being someone whose relationship to God is not very strong at all, I think it’s really exciting to hear how what you want to do for the world and the conversations you want to have are gonna be shaped by that lens. Because like that story about the tax collector you gave to us earlier, I really wasn’t familiar with that, but I think it really does kind of embody the value that can come out of being open and not really judging other people and really being willing to hope that we also won’t be judged and like being vulnerable with people because we never know who’s really gonna be the person that helps us learn something about ourselves that we didn’t know we could have learned today.
1:18:17Thomas Downs: Mm-hmm, exactly.
1:18:18Maceo: And I’m just excited to see how you go about doing that, and I just want to say thank you again. for taking the time to be here, because I know time is money, and you sat here for almost like 3 hours and helped me create this, this moment in time that we documented for everybody else to be able to hear. And ideally, it’ll exist in perpetuity, maybe one day on the blockchain, but we’ll have to see what happens.
1:18:38Thomas Downs: Yeah, definitely. Like I said before, I was just ecstatic when you not only told me what the podcast was about but just said that you want to sit and talk about it. And I think it’s one of those things, like I said before, that we’ve, we’ve had a lot of these type of discussions and talk behind closed doors, but now being able to open it up and create this platform to be able to talk about this type of stuff and hoping that it resonates with certain people of saying like, hey, I haven’t thought about this, or something I should think about, and kind of changing the way we’re kind of seeing things, which I think is just important and cool, really. Like, just real interesting type of thing that we’re able to do and sit here and talk and document it and really have it set in stone and throw it out on the interweb, the internet. on the line and stuff like that and allow people to kind of hear what we’re talking about, which is, which is amazing. So I just appreciate you allowing me to have, um, this time to be with you today, and it means a lot, really.
1:19:27Maceo: I appreciate that. Do you wanna, do you wanna give them your social media or other places they can find you?
1:19:33Thomas Downs: Yeah, so, um, uh, Instagram @tdmotivates. T-D-M-O-T-I-V-A-T-E-S. I hope that I spelled that right, but TD Motivates. No spaces, no dashes, anything like that. But then my other Instagram page is @td.7.jr. That’s another, my personal Instagram page. But I also have the Come As You Are podcast, exactly as it said, on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. And then on TikTok, the Come As You Are podcast. And then Twitter, it’s UpNext_Thomas. UpNext_Thomas. I made it when I was younger, so I hope I’m up next by now. Yes, sir, definitely. But that, that’s my old Twitter name, um, that’s there. So follow me, subscribe to certain things, um, and I’m excited to, to, to, to hear how this podcast continues to move forward as I continue to move forward with my stuff. And I hope Maseo, um, continues to do what he does because he’s, he’s going to change the world in certain ways. So thank you.
1:20:38Maceo: Right back at you, my guy. Yeah, so definitely tune into that. We’re going to change the world. We them niggas. That’s what this is about. So, sir, and you have like, uh, uh, Cash App, Venmo, PayPal, ways people can contribute to you and say thank you monetarily as well?
1:20:52Thomas Downs: Yeah, appreciate it. Like, it’s, um, my Cash App is Cash App tag Pastor Thom, P-A-S-T-O-R-T-H-O-M. So instead of T-O-M, it’s T-H-O-N. So Pastor Thom. Um, and then my Venmo is Thomas Downs-JR. if I’m not mistaken. Um, so it’s Thomas Downs Jr., but instead of like spelling out Junior, it’s just JR. Um, so yeah, if that’s something that you’re willing to do, and I appreciate it a lot because I’m a broke college student with a lot of student loan debt, so it would be greatly appreciated. Thank you.
1:21:27Maceo: And he’s investing in you all, you know, by having these conversations. So just a nice way to get back and say thank you, um, and let him know you appreciate him putting his time into this and that it will continue to be worth Definitely, definitely. So thank you all for listening. Uh, this is the We Them Niggas Podcast, episode 2, and I really appreciate all of you being here with us.
1:21:47Thomas Downs: Peace.
