0:52Dax HansenAnd so back in 2010 and 2011, some of the early companies that were building The infrastructure around Bitcoin, like brokerages and wallets and vaults approached me. And then as the new protocols outside of Bitcoin started to pop on the scene, they came to me as well. So I got into it because I was just fascinated by really what at that time looked like sort of the -- were like social media meets banking and money. Open source, right? Open source is a thing that I’ve lived through where you’ve gone from closed environments to open environments, and this is where it related to money. And it just gripped my attention, and I started doing the work and advising on how the existing laws that really didn’t take into account things like decentralized virtual currencies applied.
0:52Dax HansenAnd I think my advice was well received and it was helpful, helped companies navigate the issues and the risks and build the businesses and products around it. And so that just sort of spread, you know, referrals one at a time until all of a sudden Perkins Coie, you know, had the first law practice around virtual currencies in the world. We launched it in 2013 and we’ve been busy ever since with a very large group of lawyers who advise on all aspects of this fascinating industry.
3:58Kamal HubbardYeah. And So you touched on, you know, you assess risk with your clients and what sort of risks do you feel that blockchain-based businesses should be apprised of and know very generally well before they go into this space?
4:20Dax HansenWell, so there’s a handful of legal issues or legal regimes that you just always have to go inspect, right? And, and then also say that there’s kind of a decoder ring to understand like when legal issues pop up. And I’ll mention both of those, right? So in terms of the legal issues that come up, one always should look at anti-money laundering related issues, money transmission, sanctions, securities laws, and commodity laws, right? Like, those are almost always present in one of these projects, right? And then if you think about the decoder ring, like, well, how do you know, like, how the laws apply and who do they apply to?
4:20Dax HansenThat it’s useful for people just to understand that laws usually are focused on activities rather than on, like, particular technologies. Right? And it’s hard to understand exactly how the laws apply unless you think about things like custody or transmission, right? Or issuance, and, or offering some sort of investment services and some sort of returns like lending. And, and, and so these particular activities are, are often relevant in a blockchain and a crypto context. And it’s also important to understand that each of the laws have different ways of looking at these activities or the products, right? So if you, so for instance, like people say, hey, isn’t Bitcoin, isn’t it property?
4:20Dax HansenYou know, because the IRS said that it’s property. Well, yeah, it is for purposes of determining the tax consequences, but it’s also a commodity for purposes of considering the commodities laws. And it can be monetary value for purposes of considering the money transmission and the anti-money laundering or the sanctions-related issues. And so it’s a confusing area where different regimes can apply at the same time. But I guess, you know, at the end of the day, what I’d say is that everybody should just figure out What is the product? What are the activities? Consider the legal issues. And then, you know, these days, I mean, maybe from the beginning, one always had to consider the international considerations, right?
4:20Dax HansenLike that, that you just, the laws that might apply in the US could be very different from what applies in Asia or in Europe. And these are international protocols, you know, by definition, these are internet-based And so they’re international, but then these technologies don’t necessarily stop at the borders, but the legal issues that apply to them do.
7:14Kamal HubbardYeah. And you see me nodding my head and smiling because that was actually my next question. So what are some of the jurisdictional issues? These are decentralized networks that are global, and certain customers may not necessarily be within the United States who may raise a claim. What are some jurisdictional issues that you raise to potential clients when you’re advising them on these matters?
7:43Dax HansenOne of the first questions that people ask these days is, where should we be based, right? Where should, where should we operate our business from? If we’re going to raise money, where should we do it from, right? And right now in the United States, it’s a tough place to be. It’s a tough regulatory environment. And so many people are interested in operating outside the United States. And so then the question becomes, can you actually practically operate outside the United States if you are a US person, your US business, right? And, and so the question is like, where should you be based? Where do you operate from?
7:43Dax HansenWho do you, who do you offer your products and services to? And how can you ensure that only the people in certain jurisdictions that you want allowed in can access your platform or your products or services? How do you whitelist them? How do you blacklist them? Right. And it’s tricky. So these days, you know, one of the questions is like, what are the most favorable jurisdictions, you know, that actually have certainty of law? And in the EU right now, we have the Marketing Crypto Assets Law, which actually provide definitions of certain types of products that are money or investments or commodities and, and the licensing and registration regimes that go along with it.
7:43Dax HansenWe have other, we have jurisdictions like Malta and others that have developed like crypto regimes. And so it actually unfortunately becomes a little bit of a case-by-case analysis to understand based on like the founders and their interests, including if they’re just trying to build like a global protocol that’s intended to operate everywhere, or if they’ve got a certain audience base, or if they’re trying to attract, raise money from a particular jurisdiction. All of these things will influence where you launch. But, you know, we’ve had to develop in our practice here, a very deep set of relationships with the best counsel all over the world, because this is an international question.
7:43Dax HansenIt really is. You know, this space touches on international issues both inbound and outbound all the time.
10:12Kamal HubbardRight, right. And, you know, you touched on the European Union’s MiCA regime of regulatory guidance. And unfortunately, we’re not quite there yet in the United States. But if you had an opportunity to have a little bit of influence, let’s just say, in the regulatory rulemaking here in the United States, what would be a few things that you would like to see to make the business environment for blockchain-based businesses and Web3 service providers a little bit more business-friendly?
10:58Dax HansenIt’s a great question. And I actually do think that I have had an influence over the years in helping to shape what the legal landscape looks like. And my observation from that is that we make progress one conversation at a time, one person at a time, and we need to have a lot of conversations, right? And that’s with lawmakers, with regulators, with policymakers, and ultimately decisions that are -- because arguments are made to judges. Look, I I think right now we need more legal certainty, regulatory clarity, in particular around the securities regime. If you just back up and ask, is there relative clarity around the legal regimes that crypto touches on?
10:58Dax HansenIn most areas, it is relatively clear. Right? Like in areas like FinCEN, Financial Crimes Enforcement Network, came out with guidance in 2013 that still holds. It works quite well. And most of these agencies have refreshed their guidance with -- they’ve kind of updated it, kind of pulled things together so it’s all in one place. But we know what’s money. We know how to deal with -- or monetary value. We know how to deal with reporting suspicious activities and terrorist financing controls and other issues. We know what is a commodity and what’s a regulated commodity. We have pretty clear guidance from state and federal regulators around custodying assets, issuing assets, things like stablecoins, exchange activities.
10:58Dax HansenAnd we do have a law, we have set laws like the Howey Test and and Gary Plastics that lay out really like facts and circumstances type circumstance tests for determining what’s a security and how do you deal with it. And I think that where there’s been a fair amount of frustration is that, that, that like the SEC has not provided the level of clarity and certainty that a lot of the participants were hoping for. Right? Like that the view seemingly has been it’s clear, right? And but what, but what we see is now 2 things happening. One is a set of cases that are being, have been pursued and decisions that have been issued and cases that may be appealed where we’re getting judicial review on this question, these questions about what things are securities, are they offered?
10:58Dax HansenAnd then we’re seeing Congress propose new legislation that would either give power to certain agencies or clarify the issues, put some sort of regime in place like the MiCA regime in the EU. And so, I mean, honestly, this process is working out the way it’s supposed to in the United States, right? It’s very frustrating, but we have checks and balances for a reason. And law develops probably more slowly here in the United States. Ultimately, we get it right. And the real question that I have is, are we going to get it right in time to retain the edge in terms of the innovation and the opportunities?
10:58Dax Hansenup here, right? Because there’s just a lot of companies that are leaving the United States. The Chamber of Commerce and others have, you know, even submitted like amicus briefs that really talked about how the lack of regulatory clarity in discrete areas like securities laws that are so important are driving people out of the United States. And that’s been my experience as a practitioner here, right, is that a lot of people just are concerned that it’s not feasible to do something here, but it is relatively clear that they could do it in another set of jurisdictions. And so they’re evaluating what to do over there. So it’s a very long answer to your question, but I would expedite the regulatory certainty around the securities laws in particular, because that would provide a lot of clarity, a lot of opportunities for companies that have projects that are like in limbo now or that want to launch.
15:49Kamal HubbardWell, you mentioned earlier the Howey Test, and from your perspective, in your words to, you know, a layperson listening or someone who might be more development-minded, How do you describe the key factors that determine whether a cryptocurrency or digital asset is a security under the Howey Test?
16:20Dax HansenYeah, well, first of all, let me say I’m not a securities lawyer.
16:25Kamal HubbardOkay.
16:25Dax HansenAnd so in this situation, you know, someone should consult their local securities lawyer. And it’s a complex area. And by the way, it’s evolving by the minute. And almost, I mean, what’s more important than understanding like the Howey Test is to understand the state of enforcement actions and different guidance from the Securities and Exchange Commission to understand like all the background that’s happening here, right? But I guess I will just say generally what people know about the Howey Test is it’s a investment of money with the expectation of value or return based on the managerial efforts of others, right? And so, but that’s only one of the tests.
16:25Dax HansenI mean, there’s other tests that are applied by the courts, but I think that, you know, generally speaking, the question is looked at from the perspective of a buyer, like an investor, like, are they buying this whatever this is, oftentimes a token, with an expectation of making money off of somebody else’s activities, right? And this goes back to the very sort of origins of even of what we call utility tokens, right? Like there were cryptocurrencies that were put out there and then there were tokens that were like programmable money, but software, you know, the ability to access a protocol that does a particular thing. some unit, some measure of services.
16:25Dax HansenAnd so there was a question about, well, wait, what happens if you’re buying a token to consume a service, right? To use it for a particular service or activity or to redeem it for a particular thing. And so people sort of got comfortable, you know, in the absence of really any any clear guidance from the SEC about, okay, well, like, if it -- if you can use it, if it’s useful, if it’s, you know, but that doesn’t really answer the question fully, right? Because, you know, if you’re a -- was it -- what is the thing? If you’re a hammer, everything looks like a nail. And so, you know, the folks who are trying to protect investors, trying to protect, you know, the financial system, look at everything through the lens of like, is somebody like speculating on this, right?
16:25Dax HansenAnd honestly, I mean, I think we should just recognize that there has been a lot of speculation, right, in the digital asset space. I mean, people got excited about Bitcoin and it’s an asset that has gone up in value. People are excited about it. It was decentralized. It worked on different rules. But then there were a lot of other people who pretended projects, some in that same legitimate mind and others that were much more ambitious or speculative, and people lost money. And so like, this is a thorny area, right? Where it’s hard to separate out the true intent of the people who are launching the projects and the people who are participating in them.
16:25Dax HansenAnd, um, and so while it is, I mean, my belief that there are many of these projects that literally are just trying to change the world, right? Like, there’s a better way. I know it’s something you’ve written about too. Like, there’s, like, there’s a better way to develop and to run a financial system, for instance, right? That is more inclusive. that’s more resilient, that’s more distributed, decentralized, or at least to provide an alternative to the existing system. And the decentralized, distributed, inclusive model is very appealing to a lot of people, right? It’s a lot more understandable. It’s math-limited, for instance, right? And so look, I mean, I think that there are a lot of very legitimate projects out there, and I’ve been fortunate to work on many of them.
16:25Dax Hansenwhere people build something that’s better, faster, cheaper than the current system. But there are other people who are either ignorant of the laws and the rules or taking advantage of people and putting something else out there that’s copycat. And so there has to be rules of the road, there has to be enforcement. The ICO space, I always dislike that term, but but that it became just very frothy with speculation and it needed to be shut down. And so I guess while I’m on my high horse here, I guess what I’ll say is I think it’s really important for the actors in the crypto space to have real core values, to be good corporate citizens, to anticipate consumer protection, to build something with fundamentals that can be trusted.
16:25Dax HansenAnd when there are bad actors, they should be shut down. And we should recognize that law enforcement and regulators, they’ve been tasked with a job to protect all of us and protect our systems. And they can’t let something bad happen on their watch. And when you’ve got a really powerful set of technologies like smart contracts and blockchain technology and digital assets that can move instantly almost around the world, that’s a powerful tool that we need to be careful about. And there will always be a tension between protection, investor protection, consumer protection, and innovation. And we got to find that, right? And if people are just out there to speculate, they shouldn’t really be in the space, right?
16:25Dax HansenI mean, I’m not really -- I’m not sympathetic to people who are just trying to make a quick buck in this space, right? And so it’s nice to be in downturns, you know, bear markets, if you will, to just see who’s there, right? And people should look around, take note who’s building, who’s collaborating, who’s working on really transformative technologies, which, by the way, all these take about 30 years or more to develop, right? And we’re in the early innings, but see who’s building and lean in on those people, right? But know that law enforcement, regulators, judges, they’re always going to tease out the bad activity. And so the industry needs to demonstrate that their system, that their solutions are better and demonstrably better.
23:23Kamal HubbardYeah, I think, like you said, with that speculation, it just opens up the opportunity for fraudulent actors to come in and play on that speculation. So it’s unfortunate, but you know, I want to --
23:44Dax HansenCan I interrupt real quick? It’s on that vein. I mean, just to piggyback off of that a little bit, right? That what Bitcoin did really well and that other protocols have tried to emulate is to build an incentive system that allows people or that incentivizes people to embrace a decentralized model. I mean, Bitcoin mining rewards were designed to reward the people who were running the infrastructure, the mining infrastructure to process transactions. That’s a novel concept. And it worked really well with Bitcoin. And so I think that there’s a difference to be focused on between building incentive systems financial incentives versus just speculation, right? And we’re in the early innings of trying to tease that out, right?
23:44Dax HansenAnd you need to look at DeFi and airdrops. So people speculate a lot of things. They come with this, again, another horrible term called tokenomics, right? But tokenomics. But the point is, if we want infrastructure that is decentralized, that everybody can use, that nobody controls, it’s easier for us to all access, We’ve got to find a way to encourage people to do that. And it’s got to be economically viable. And so I do view ourselves at -- I mean, staking and staking rewards is another example of this. And we’re sort of balancing things like energy consumption at the same time, consensus mechanisms. But I think we should all -- and again, I’m speaking to regulators and law enforcement every too -- Like, take a little bit of a step back while we’re figuring it out.
23:44Dax HansenIt’s a little bit like, you know, the approach to regulating the internet, right? Like, okay, there was all sorts of criminal activity happening on the internet and abuses of trademarks and copyrights and you name it. And so there was sort of a, you know, an initial knee-jerk reaction to like regulate this platform, this technology. And over time, you know, at least, you know, in most countries, We said, okay, we’re going to let this thing percolate a little bit, right? And then we’ll go control it a little bit later. We’ll give some people some safe harbors. And so I think we should do that here too, right?
23:44Dax HansenLike, this is like an internet built on the internet. And then you add in things like AI and machine learning and, you know, there’s convergence of technologies. This is really powerful stuff and we haven’t figured out exactly what’s going to come out of it.
26:24Kamal HubbardYeah, there’s going to be some harm.
26:25Dax HansenBut it’s also the case that a lot of the losses in crypto came from value that was created almost out of thin air. It was new value created. So yeah, we lost some of that new value, but what did we gain? It’s a little bit like in the dot-com bubble, right? The dot-com burst. There are lots of companies that went under, but there are some really amazing companies that emerged, right? There are thousands of them and we ended up getting dozens of really Horror companies -- that’s happening here too. But I think that your watchers and listeners would probably just be wise to note that regulators regulate, you know, lawmakers make law, judges decide, right?
26:25Dax HansenLike, and you know, like lawyers advocate. Like that, that it’s not that we’re not all in the same boat together, right? Like it’s it’s not that most people are not. Saying, hey, let’s go sing Kumbaya here. Like, how are we going to do this all together? How do we develop something? It’s really people have their job and, you know, crypto is sexy. And so like, if you can enforce against it, you can put somebody away behind bars or whatever, like that’s, that’s viewed as a win, but that’s not a win holistically. And I think that that’s where lawyers play a really important role here, where we’re supposed to be advocates and we’re supposed to be objective.
26:25Dax Hansenthough, where we lay things out clearly to all the constituents. And so things like, okay, just because someone’s making a little bit of money as an incentive doesn’t make this bad. It doesn’t even make it an investment, right? It’s that we have to ask bigger questions and not get discouraged when the centralized model tries to crush some of those dialogues because You know, the centralized system that everything’s built on today is being transformed and there’s going to be some friction in that process.
28:20Kamal HubbardYeah, absolutely. I mean, when you talk about the traditional centralized financial system, we’re starting to see them now adopting blockchain and buying Bitcoin assets and releasing Bitcoin spot ETFs. How do you think that’s going to have an impact in the next, you know, 5, 10 years? Not legal advice, obviously, but just, you know, your opinion.
28:54Dax HansenWell, not legal opinion. Yeah, yeah, yeah. This is my view. I mean, look, my view is that this is all -- it’s a natural evolution. I mean, these are asset classes, but these are also like rails. There’s rails and then there’s technologies, right? And you got to sort of tease all those things out. But like, I mean, like, just back up and say, well, what is Bitcoin good for? Okay. Some people are like, oh man, look, it’s $26,000, $27,000. It’s an amazing investment. But when you ask, well, what is Bitcoin? Well, Bitcoin is, it’s a blockchain smart contract-based solution that allows for the transfer of value or really just property almost anywhere over around the world, you know, pretty quickly, right?
28:54Dax HansenLike every 10 minutes there can be a transaction. Yeah, you got to scale it, but then you have layer 2 technologies like Lightning, which bring, you know, immediacy and low fees. to the solution too, right? And so like we’re able to move value around. Like, I mean, it’s another PayPal, bank, you name it, you know, Western Union type solution that everybody can access. That’s really powerful, right? And so when you ask, all right, and then as a, because it’s also a store of value and it’s limited, then, you know, like people are going to want to get access to it. They’re going to want to use it.
28:54Dax HansenThey’re going to want to hold on to it, maybe in lieu of other assets, right? As investment, some sort of certainty. And so of course you’re going to see, in my view, I think it’s just natural that you’re going to see traditional finance also go do their diligence. And when something, some products, an asset, some technology is involved here that’s legit, they’re going to find ways to also make money or trade in it. And because it’s relevant, right? I mean, it’s, you think about where stablecoin’s going and central bank digital currencies. I mean, we’re going to a more digital, real-time distributed payments and financial system, investment system, that they can be much more inclusive.
28:54Dax HansenSo I think traditional finance will get there. I just think that maybe the intent of the parties in traditional finance are perhaps different from some of the pioneers in the crypto space who are much more focused on things like inclusion, Right? Like, there’s many people in the crypto space, at least people that I know from the very early days, who are visionaries, who really don’t care about money, right? They care about what these tools can do. Yeah, they’ve made money in the process, but many of them are just very opinionated about how to make the world a better place. And so I think that we’re going to always see the crypto pioneers and TradFi, maybe advancing the causes, but on parallel tracks that have different priorities.
28:54Dax HansenBut traditional finance will make it more mainstream, right? So that people, you can invest in Bitcoin, stablecoins, a bunch of illiquid assets perhaps that have become tokenized. You can invest in those alongside mutual funds and ETFs and stock picks, right? Or just currency transactions, which I think makes it better, right? It makes investment services more accessible to people around the world. And I think there’s places like outside the United States where, as I understand, like places like in South America where like 95% of the populace don’t have access to any investments outside of just the fiat currency that they’re paid, which is constantly devaluing. Wow.
28:54Dax HansenLike in the United States, like we’re very privileged to have access to investments here. But, you know, these types of investments are rare for other people. And so I think that we can bring more hope to them. I mean, Hopefully we’ll raise all -- was it the rising tide raises all boats? I mean, I think that we can improve the financial literacy, the financial opportunities of people around the world and people who may have been disadvantaged up to this point.
33:51Kamal HubbardYeah, very much so. I mean, in a lot of ways, you know, when I read the Bitcoin white paper and the abstract, you know, its original, I guess, function was to serve as peer-to-peer transactions among, you know, parties. And, you know, it’s, it’s grown beyond that in a lot of ways. And I think, you know, you can’t be too much of a strict constructionalist, obviously, in the -- when looking at the Bitcoin white paper because it’s technology. It’s only going to advance. But we saw it come at a time when, you know, after a financial collapse, and it was there as an alternative. And that’s what really piqued my interest about it. But speaking of interests being piqued, you know, the law aside, what do you see in terms of developments and trends in this technology? around blockchain, Web3 that are keeping you interested and engaged? Once again, outside of the law, things that just interest you just outside of business hours.
35:03Dax HansenSo I’m fascinated by Lightning, by the Lightning Network, right? I mean, I’ve known some of the developers of Lightning from the very earliest days. But the Lightning Network has come of age and it’s really impressive how it can scale Bitcoin and then use Bitcoin as a rail for all sorts of other fiat-based stablecoins, for instance, different types of assets. The fact that you can really make Bitcoin is something other than like a pretty slow, steady store of value, but that you can use it for real-time payments. You can use it for micropayments, right? Like that you can engage in transactions where you don’t need to have -- you don’t have to wait for 10 minutes for the transaction to be verified.
35:03Dax HansenSo as a payments lawyer, I’m fascinated by Lightning. And because I’m also very interested in Bitcoin, right? So when you put a Lightning layer 2 technology on Bitcoin, that fascinates me and really excited to see where that goes. I did like Balaji Srinivasan used to always just say, like, what’s your Bitcoin strategy? And I thought that there was a time when it became blockchain instead of Bitcoin, right? And then I’d say, well, what’s your blockchain strategy? And now I think we’re back to -- well, I believed that actually there was a question like, what is your Bitcoin strategy? Like, it’s true to ask what is your blockchain strategy, but what is your Bitcoin strategy is still very relevant.
35:03Dax HansenAnd I think these days, if you have any sort of online presence or mobile presence, you should be asking yourself, what is your Lightning strategy? Okay. So Lightning, probably one of the most interesting things for me. The other is this blurring of the lines, if you will, or the melding of TradFi and DeFi, if you will, right, of crypto, where you were alluding to it earlier, but like when you’ve got traditional financial services firms getting involved, well, that provides opportunities to build like wallet applications with new types of assets that have been tokenized with transfers between them. And it also allows for different, like, settlement services and systems and solutions where you could, for instance, attach a real-life debit card, the plastic card, to a digital wallet balance, right?
35:03Dax HansenAnd how do you authenticate and authorize those transactions You know, and, you know, we, most fintechs have partnered up with banks and there’s banking as a service platforms and other things, right? Where we’re seeing just new options around value accounts and products and services. And, you know, you gotta work through things like Reg E and electronic funds transfers and then banking laws and deposit taking. Right? But that there’s a lot of room in that space to innovate and there’s some really cool companies innovating in that spot. So those are, you know, sort of like that border between traditional finance and crypto is a ripe area that I spend a lot of time thinking about.
35:03Dax HansenIt’s fascinating. And then maybe the last thing I’ll mention is that I am considering how do we use these advanced technologies, these solutions, these products for good. And I mean, like, they’re interesting in and of themselves, but the real question is how do we use them to do something amazing? How do we solve problems that maybe for centuries generations at least, we’ve never been able to solve them with the existing set of tools, right? Like the blockchain, crypto, smart, you know, contract AI, all these things bring new tools to us that we can put in our toolkit where we can solve problems, right? So I’m fascinated with the climate, climate change and agriculture and health, right?
35:03Dax HansenI’m focused on regenerative agriculture, especially hot and dry climates. And exploring, well, how do you use, how can you use crypto or blockchain to improve those systems, right? How do you change the status quo? I think we can ask the same question about things like justice. How do you use, you know, like big, you know, kind of existential questions. And, and that we should be asking those questions, not just like, how can I make a quick buck about it, but off of it, but like, literally, how does this help improve lives? How does it help improve the environment, the climate? And, you know, when you start asking those questions, it’s really interesting.
35:03Dax HansenI mean, so there’s a book called A Finer Future, and it’s called -- I think the subtext is Building an Economy in Service of Life. And it has this really interesting diagram, like you’ve got the Earth at the top, And you got the finance at the bottom, financial system on one side, and you’ve got finance at the top and the Earth at the bottom on the other side, right? And really sort of the suggestion is that we these days, for a long time, have just been extracting the resources of the Earth and everybody’s working to just like chase the mighty dollar and it helps people in finance, right?
35:03Dax HansenLike we’re all helping enrich this system. right? Whatever the system is, as opposed to using money and finance to improve lives and the environment, right? And so I think that like I’m starting to see that over my entire career, I’ve developed, you know, a proficiency in building better economies, better finance systems. That’s what I do for a living. But very interestingly, I found myself, you know, as a farm owner, as taking over my family’s farm and working with a lot of farmers, that now I’ve got like bookends, right? Like that I’ve got finance, I got skin in the game on finance and skin in the game on the environment or the earth.
35:03Dax HansenAnd that like I’ve got a bit of a calling to try to fix all the systems in between, to connect the tissue in better ways. And I hope that people in crypto, people, your listeners, for instance, are asking themselves that question, what can I do with this? Because there’s a lot of people who are listening to you who are early adopters, who have seen the power of these technologies for, for good or for bad, who, if they’ve got a bigger mission, can stitch it together, right? And, and I hope there’s more dialogues around that. Like, I’d love to see conferences that are just solely dedicated to like to the betterment of our societies and environments through these technologies.
35:03Dax HansenSo, you know, those things I think about right now.
42:25Kamal HubbardYeah, I mean, absolutely. And I think we kind of had a brief conversation during the summit about, you know, regenerative finance, refi, decentralized science. And those are the sort of things that I’m hoping, just like you, people move away from the zero-sum games of trading cryptocurrencies, or like you said, trying to invest and speculate, into moving into those sort of applications, being pioneers within those applications, and like you said, bringing more value to life on Earth. And so You know, those are things I’m hoping to cover and hopefully in the future have an opportunity to speak with you a little bit more in depth on. But, you know, very -- I’m very much appreciative of you taking time out of your day to speak with everyone here tuning in.
43:22Dax HansenMy pleasure. Thanks for having me, Kemal. It’s been a great conversation.
43:25Kamal HubbardYeah, yeah. So I’ll let you have the last word, Dax, in terms of how people can find you or if you’d like to direct them to anything you think would be helpful in helping them enrich themselves in, uh, this, this world of cryptocurrencies?
43:41Dax HansenSure. Okay, well, I guess I’d say, you know, just check out perkinscoie.com. You can see a lot of the content that we’ve created and curated over the years. There’s even a website called virtualcurrencyreport.com where we have weekly updates, we have international trackers, we have years’ worth of value there for people who are trying to understand the legal landscape and some of the other opportunities. And then I’d say if people want to know a little bit more about how I think on a personal level, they can go to oatmanfarms.com and check out my Farmers Love Bitcoin page where I just describe just as an example what we could do if we got Bitcoin in the hands of farmers.
43:41Dax HansenThey could, I mean, the very simple task of getting Bitcoin into their hands to make their lives better. And I wrote that, of course, before Lightning was even a thing. And so there’s better technologies now for doing it. But those are a few places where you can see how my mind works and see what my team can do. And we’d love to be helpful. I’d love to be helpful. My team would love to be helpful to anybody who’s trying to build something important and, uh, and, and help others using these technologies, we can help guide that, uh, that path.
45:04Kamal HubbardAll right, well, thanks again, Dax, for joining us. And for all you out there, don’t just make it a good day, make it a great day. A great day with crypto, Crypto with Kamal. And I’m looking forward to seeing you next time.
