2:08Kamal HubbardWow, that’s absolutely amazing, and I’m so glad to be talking to you, especially this is my first interview here for the summit, and, um, you’re going to be speaking on building Web3 throughout the diaspora, uh, tomorrow virtually, which I think is also very great. So, um, I’m excited to hear your address and your panel as well, but obviously I’m gonna have to wait to hear a little bit more about that. I did want to ask you though, how did you actually become interested in blockchain and crypto?
2:51Yvonne KagonduUm, that’s a good question, Kamal. Uh, well, how I got interested into it was, uh, I, I studied financial economics in my undergraduate, uh, locally here in Kenya at a university called Strathmore University. And while I was studying it, of course, you go through the history of finance and financial economics, you go through the history of economics, you go through, you know, how finance has evolved over the years from the beginning of finance up to where we are today. So it made me ask myself, so what is the future of finance? Uh, and at that time, there was a huge push for technology in Kenya.
2:51Yvonne KagonduKenya was becoming -- they call it the Silicon Savannah, um, and there was a lot of conversation on building on tech. And it made me curious, how, how can we advance as financial economists into what is the future of our field? And at that time, I remember while I was in school, one day I saw children on their school holidays coming to the university to learn how to code. And I wondered, if I don’t know how to code, what exactly is my future if the children as young as around 7 years old, 6 years old, were learning how to build? So right after I finished my undergrad, I went to a software development bootcamp.
2:51Yvonne KagonduAnd, um, well, I got into software development, I, I learned about blockchain technology, and it seems so familiar to me because of my background in finance and financial economics. And it’s -- it made sense. It was like, it was like financial economics on steroids. Everything just made sense. The principle, uh, behind it, Satoshi Nakamoto, what he wrote on the white paper. It’s, it’s, it’s, it made a lot of sense to me, and I decided to, um, find the community in Kenya. That was back in 2018, to find who is building this, who owns Bitcoin in Kenya, and, um, what have they been up to. So that’s how I stumbled on -- I, I found that I found people, like-minded people who are interested in Bitcoin and cryptocurrencies and blockchain technology.
2:51Yvonne KagonduWe formed a community, we grew, and Now, 5 years later, here we are.
5:29Kamal HubbardThat’s cool. That’s very cool. And, you know, something I kind of want to talk to you about -- I know peer-to-peer transactions in Kenya are actually more, uh, prevalent than they are here in the United States. It seems like, uh, at least the way things are now, most people are just buying off of exchanges like Coinbase or, uh, you know, binance.us or a place like that. But in Kenya, and correct me if I’m wrong, you guys do do more peer-to-peer transactions. Am I right about that?
6:08Yvonne KagonduYeah, um, you are very right. Thank you for doing your research.
6:12Kamal HubbardWell, actually, you know, uh, so many years back, I was -- I did a lot of OTC trading. And so every now and then I would do, uh, like your occasional trade in, uh, Kenya. So I mean, it was great to, to work with folks there, but I always wondered like, how is this -- how’s this actually working on, on their end? So I mean, could you maybe describe what the typical, uh, trade is like for you guys in terms of how you actually get Bitcoin or crypto and how do you -- what do you usually trade it for, or how do you -- do you typically sell, sell it for, uh, your currency there?
7:00Yvonne KagonduOkay, I’ll give you a bit of background, but don’t tell the government. Okay, um, so I know, I know. So, okay, back in 2015, uh, the government issued a cautionary notice to -- not the government, the Central Bank of Kenya issued a cautionary notice to all Kenyans and all banks in Kenya that they should not engage with Bitcoin or cryptocurrencies at all. They don’t support it, they don’t advocate for it. So since then, the stance has not changed. It’s, uh, it’s still The same cautionary notice. So banks in a way are not allowed to interact with cryptocurrencies or serve as an on-ramp to cryptocurrency platforms. In fact, if a bank is found on-ramping onto a cryptocurrency platform or an exchange or Coinbase or Binance, they will -- they’ll get into a lot of trouble with the Central Bank of Kenya.
7:00Yvonne KagonduAdditionally to that, um, we have, we have, um, we have a very young population. I’m sure you’re aware of that. With general Africa has a quite a young population, but, uh, what’s not -- people may know, but we have, we have a highly educated population as well. When we were younger, there was a huge push by the government to ensure Every, um, every student, every child was educated. It’s illegal in Kenya to not take your child to school. So the young, the youth population are highly educated. And then the catalyst is unemployment. We have a huge population that is educated, it’s young, it’s tech savvy because we have a very good internet here in Kenya.
7:00Yvonne KagonduAnd they’re idle because they’re unemployed. So with that, people are getting really creative. How do they make money? So, um, with that, we, we see a lot of young people doing freelance work here in Kenya. Um, so they do a lot of, uh, online writing. They do a lot of work on Fiverr. They do a lot of -- oh, Fiverr, sorry.
9:28Kamal HubbardFiverr.
9:29Yvonne KagonduThey do a lot of work on Upwork, um, and it reached a point when they realized that, um, they’re not receiving money well because PayPal is very discriminatory for Africans. Um, we don’t -- our accounts get closed off very fast. There’s no customer support that listens to Africans. Um, so we -- cryptocurrency, while in pursuit of means of payment, someone came across -- one, two people came across receiving payments through Bitcoin. And when this was done, because of course these young people are playing around on the internet looking for means to make money, they started -- one, two people started receiving money with Bitcoin. It was faster, it was, um, more secure, it was less discriminatory, and they started cashing out.
9:29Yvonne KagonduSo in Kenya, Bitcoin is quite cheap because we have a lot of online workers, and we cash out for around 0 to 2%. here in Kenya. But we have countries like Nigeria, other African countries who don’t necessarily have that sort of privilege that we have. And they created a somehow arbitrage market because you find, um, countries like outside country -- countries outside Kenya are, are willing to buy Bitcoin a premium. So it created an opportunity, an arbitrage opportunity. So you’d find that people are buying locally here in Kenya for around 2%, 0 to 2%, and selling internationally across African countries. So we talk about Africa free trade, and I see the, the presence of Africa and free trade is not really in goods and services, but it’s mostly started with Bitcoin and went -- right now I’m seeing USDT being traded more than Bitcoin.
9:29Yvonne KagonduAnd hopefully ICP in future. So that’s that was the push that led to this because it starts off with the government first banning cryptocurrencies, then the youth being aggressive, then the international markets coming in. Additionally to that, we had big players such as Paxful, which is not as popular as it was before, Local Bitcoins, which closed down, and now Binance. Binance has become a huge driving force because they go around school to school, university to university, training people about cryptocurrencies, training people about how they can buy and sell cryptos in Kenya. Um, use -- and of course the buying and selling is done using M-Pesa, which is familiar to all Kenyans.
9:29Yvonne KagonduSo normally freelancers come in, cash out their crypto at 0 to 2%. And then those people buying went to sell in international markets, and this has created a whole ecosystem who are making means of living. People are no longer idle, and I think, um, this has led to more careers coming in. Like, we have people applying for jobs at Binance, more cryptocurrencies, um, are coming in saying they want to train people, they want to set their markets here in Kenya and the likes. Yeah.
12:42Kamal HubbardThat is a really great illustration of what I didn’t know about how things go in Kenya in terms of crypto. So you really broke down the regulatory considerations as well as, you know, from a process standpoint, how this works. And it’s very interesting to see the interest coming in. And, you know, I guess that leads me to my next question in terms of, you know, how did you come across the Internet Computer and what piqued your interest about it?
13:20Yvonne KagonduUm, well, I, I, I think I didn’t find ICP, but ICP found me, um, in my work because I’ve been a huge advocate for cryptocurrencies over the past, um, couple of years, and I’ve been championing people to adopt it. I’ve been championing freelancers, um, you know, check out these things. It will -- it’s less -- it’s an easier way of receiving money. Um, I’ve been in charge of many -- um, I’m a consultant myself. Before I, I formed the hub, I was a consultant, and I’d help a lot of um, local and international companies set up their markets here in Kenya. And with that work, I also started helping Kenyan women find their -- find their ways in -- not ways, like their parts in cryptocurrencies and in blockchain technology.
13:20Yvonne KagonduSo I had formed a community of women in Kenya and helped educate them on blockchain technology, helped educate them on how they can you know, trade, P2P trading, how they can get jobs and the likes in the industry. So with my advocacy work, um, my name grew. I became, um, they call us KOLs, key opinion leaders. And, um, ICP was looking for, um, someone who is passionate enough about the, about blockchain technology and Web3 to lead their hub in in Africa, in East Africa. So, um, I came on their radar and they reached out to me. Um, at first I, I didn’t know them quite well because at that time in Kenya Bitcoin was the most popular.
13:20Yvonne KagonduIn fact, there was a time Kenya was called, was called the most maximalist country in the world. Uh, Bitcoin was the most popular, followed by USDT, but not other other blockchains and other cryptos. So they reached out to me and I was so excited, especially when I learned about their technology. When I learned about the problem that they were solving, I got really excited and I was eager to join the team. And yeah, here is -- I’ve been in the team for most of this year and I think we found each other because the shoe fits quite well.
15:54Kamal HubbardYeah, and I think ICP is a very, very intriguing network, and there’s a lot of things that I like about it. But what are some of the things that you like most about this network?
16:09Yvonne KagonduWell, my favorite thing about ICP is the team that is behind it. I’ve worked with quite a number of blockchain protocols, quite a number of, um, institutions and, and, and companies in the blockchain ecosystem. And the ICP ecosystem has really stood out to me because of, first of all, the vision is not, you know, 100x in one year or, um, 5-year plan. The vision is 20 years. They’re not thinking, um, let’s, you know, let’s moon tomorrow. They’re thinking, what can we do to ensure the longevity of the project? What can we do to ensure that the sustainability of those who build on top of us, these, uh, the people who are working with us are in a comfortable place, they’re able to build. And this has stood out to me because in blockchain you find that Um, our communities are usually -- it’s a very capitalist community. I’m sure you’ve noticed that. So when you find a team that --
17:20Kamal HubbardAbsolutely.
17:20Yvonne KagonduYeah, yeah. When you found -- when you find, um, a company that is thinking about 20 years, that is thinking long term, um, that’s a company that you would want to associate with, as opposed to some -- someone that’s thinking 1 year, 3 months. Yeah, that, that’s my favorite bits about ICP. And I also like how right now the hubs, the hubs, how, uh, we are, we are right now about 20 hubs, if I’m wrong, 15 to 20 hubs that are all over the world. And I get to interact with you in North America. I get to interact with people from India. I get to interact with people from the Philippines, people from Italy.
17:20Yvonne KagonduAnd I’m here in Kenya, in Nairobi, Kenya, which is honestly the most -- it’s, it’s beautiful, um, to learn so much. I get to learn this from India, I get to learn this from Dubai, all from the comfort of home. So, um, we, we learn a lot from each other, and that’s the power of the internet, that’s the power of decentralization. Uh, I could go on and on about the things I like about ICP. But the thing I like about it is, um, the purpose, um, the, the mind behind it. I think it’s the best description of Web3 so far in terms of, um, when we talk about decentralizing the internet, how we talk about, you know, how the internet we are in today is quite centralized and we need to -- that’s a problem we need to solve.
17:20Yvonne KagonduAnd ICP tackles that problem. Not many projects are looking into it and it’s quite unique. So out of all the blockchains around, ICP stands out to me as something that really truly represents decentralization, truly represents longevity and sustainability. Yeah.
19:15Kamal HubbardOh yeah, I wholeheartedly agree. I think that’s, I mean, you touched on a lot of things that I like and it’s nice to hear what you like because that makes me consider some other things that I should also like. But, um, you know, that being said, I wanted to let you take an opportunity to talk a little bit more about, uh, anything else you wanted to share about, um, Kushite’s ICP Hub East Africa before we go here.
19:51Yvonne KagonduOkay, maybe I could highlight the work that we’ve done over the past couple of -- well, since we launched. We launched around May, and so far we’ve been able to do quite a number of campus tours. We’ve been able to reach about 10 universities here in Kenya, educated them individually. Personally, I’ve gone through -- I’ve gone to all these universities, met students, and they’ve had their first interaction with blockchain technology through us. And We also have been able to do evangelistic events here locally in Kenya, not just in Kenya, also in East African countries such as Rwanda and Uganda. And also we have gone beyond and gone to West Africa in countries like Ghana and Nigeria and also in South Africa.
19:51Yvonne KagonduSo our reach in Africa has been quite big and quite impressive. We have also doing more activities, especially in this, um, next couple of months. We are doing a lot of bootcathons and, and hackathons, and we are looking for people who are willing to partner with us and work with us to achieve this. Because in Africa, a challenge that we found is that, um, we are, we are really consumers of blockchain products. We, as I mentioned earlier, how P2P trading is done in Kenya and in Africa, but we’re not building enough. We’re not producing enough products from Africa. And ICP Kushite is keen to solve that problem.
19:51Yvonne KagonduAnd we’ve been able to first evangelize about blockchain and ICP here, and we’ve been able to train developers, educate them. And now we’re having bootcamps and hackathons to enable developers to actually develop projects on ICP and on blockchain technology. So we are looking for people to work with because to partner with to help us achieve this mission. And it may be someone is out there listening to me and thinking, yeah, I want to partner with that, I want to work with an African organization that gets it. You can reach out to us.
22:12Kamal HubbardWell, actually, let me be the first one to say that. I mean, I really appreciate the opportunity to collaborate across our various hubs here, but, you know, I have a huge interest in seeing Web3 proliferate throughout the continent and really just intercontinentally here as well. So, and like you said, through the diaspora. So you’re going to be talking about that tomorrow, which I’m looking forward to hearing more about. That said, I’m going to let you have the last word here, Yvonne.
22:49Yvonne KagonduOkay, my last word is follow me at Kagondo underscore Yvonne on Twitter, on LinkedIn at Yvonne Kagondo. Um, also follow our hub Kushite ICP dot hub on LinkedIn, Kushite ICP dot hub on Twitter, and also you can check us out on our website ICP Kushite dot com. And thank you so much for your time. And yeah, I hope to meet you physically soon when you come to Kenya.
23:22Kamal HubbardWell, I’m looking forward to it, and thank you as well, Yvonne. Thank you to ICP Kushite East Africa. Thank you to ICP Hub North America, and we will see you on the next one. So don’t forget Don’t just make it a good day, make it a great day. A great day with crypto, Crypto with Kamal, and we’ll catch you with our continuing coverage of the 6th Annual Black Blockchain Summit.
23:54Yvonne KagonduThank you.
