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0:00Maceo: Good morning. All right, and welcome to another episode of the We Them Nickas podcast. Uh, today I’m here with Joshua, and I’m super excited to have Joshua Lee here as a guest on my podcast. He’s operated for me as not only a life coach but a mentor, someone I admire and I see as a community activist. So I’m super honored and excited to have a conversation with you today, Joshua, and for all my listeners to get to know a little bit more about who you are and and how you contribute to my life and other communities, other people’s lives, because I definitely think you set a phenomenal example in doing that. And so I’m really excited to have you here and excited to talk about your journey to where you are. Um, yeah, so thanks for being here.
0:41Joshua Lee: Yeah, man, thank you. It’s been -- it’s my pleasure to be here. Um, not too early in the morning, but, uh, you know, it’s, um, a grand morning. Um, good to be alive. Good to be alive during this time, uh, in history. Uh, speaking of, uh, Black history, um, yeah. Uh, so I’m good to be present, accountable, available for you, my friend.
1:10Maceo: I got that. Well, I appreciate that, and happy Black History Month. Uh, I definitely try and say that to people who I feel like are, are making a difference out in the world, and I feel like that definitely includes yourself, so Happy Black History Month once again.
1:23Joshua Lee: Thank you.
1:24Maceo: Yeah. And so I guess I’d first love to jump into who you are, Joshua. So I know, I know you as a life coach. I know you as someone that does conflict resolution, de-escalation trainings in schools. You can speak more to that than maybe I just misworded that, but I’d love for you to give us a little bit of an introduction about yourself and kind of what ’23 is shaping up to look like for you. as individuals so we can get a sense of what your life looks like right now.
1:50Joshua Lee: Yeah. Thank you for this opportunity, man. It is such a pleasure to be in the work that I do, which is life coaching and being a facilitator, trainer, and coach for educators. I do restorative practices with educators, administrators, and so forth to help them to Bring a lens of restoration into the schoolhouse instead of only using the hammer, if you will, of punishment for young people who cause harm in the community of the school. And indeed, it appears that the harm is escalating, right? We’ll get into that a little bit more, but -- If I could backtrack to who I am, I hail from the great city of Baltimore in Maryland, born and raised, went away to college, came back to a situation in my community which really turned me to the community, which was a shooting and murder of a young person, actually in my, in my neighborhood. And there were some older men who I got connected with to bring a sense of community healing. And this was 30-plus years ago. And I just latched on to the opportunity to make a difference in the world, being 23, 24 years old. And I went into a mentoring program. I stayed with a group of 60 second graders for 7 years. And that was the mentoring
3:46Maceo: program.
3:46Joshua Lee: Say that again.
3:48Maceo: That was the mentoring program?
3:49Joshua Lee: Yeah, that was the mentoring program. It was funded by a philanthropical organization locally. And yeah, stayed with them and did a lot of social work type things. It’s well as mentoring things in the community of East Baltimore. And so I figured I’d go to social work school. So I went, graduated. And so I have a mental health background and with an eye towards community, right? Because that’s important because the people, you know, I was raised to always sort of look uh, to help others. My dad, with a 3rd grade education, was very community-minded. And, you know, he was not out there sort of marching up and down the streets, but he was a businessman. He was a serial business entrepreneur with a 3rd grade education, was able to amass a transportation business.
4:51Maceo: Whoa.
4:52Joshua Lee: In addition, I mean, like, you know, the yellow buses, the short ones, the long ones, coaches, vans, so forth and so on. So he showed us how to be responsible, the work ethic, figure it out, get it done, no excuses kind of thing, right? And so that’s how I sort of moved throughout the world. I think I’m the only one out of 6. I’m the youngest of 6 who sort of have the entrepreneurial piece, but everyone else is, I believe, community-minded as well, just looking to help, looking to not cause any harm in the community and so forth, and just go about our business. And what else I want to say about that, I am the proud father of 5 daughters. They’re all adults now. And, you know, I always tell a story, they all have J names. And I have 5 grandchildren who also all have J names. And so that’s my legacy so far. But in terms of the vocation and the work I do, and the impact I want to have in the world is all encapsulated with a phrase that I created that simply says, help humanity to win. Help humanity to win. What that looks like right now is life coaching, and it looks like supporting educators to bring, as I said before, restorative lens to the work that they do. And it’s tough. It’s tough for educators because many of the social challenges come into the schoolhouse, and it’s given them additional tools to use in their toolbox, as it were.
6:58Maceo: That makes sense. I guess I kind of want to backtrack honestly to, like, you brought up social work and you have a clinical background, right?
7:08Joshua Lee: Yes.
7:09Maceo: Can we, can we hear a little bit about like what the choice to kind of go into grad school for social work was like? And even like what the process was like? You have to do research, you find yourself in classrooms, kind of what was that like? What were the spaces like? What were the demographics like inside those classrooms?
7:24Joshua Lee: Okay, you want to go there with it. So as I said, I was doing social work type stuff. And the, you know, sort of organic natural progression was to you know, make it official, go into social work. And it’s interesting that I graduated when my -- in the same year that my students graduated from middle school. So I had a whole cheering section in, you know, the auditorium for me. I
7:56Maceo: believe it.
7:57Joshua Lee: University, huh?
7:58Maceo: I said, I believe it.
7:59Joshua Lee: Yeah. Went to the University of Maryland School of Social Work in downtown Baltimore. You know, by the way, when I say I live in the greatest city in the country, Baltimore City, and people look at me sort of side-eyed when I say that publicly because it currently doesn’t look that way, right? With the increase in violence, particularly with young people. Hmm. and so forth. So someone has to hold the high ground and start verbally naming what we want to see in the world, or in this case, in the city.
8:45Maceo: Mm-hmm.
8:46Joshua Lee: So I’m saying it as a declaration. I’m saying it as, um, I’m putting a stake in the ground that this is the greatest city. And then when more and more people start to verbalize that and It’s not just a mouth lip service kind of thing, but your actions follow your vision, right? And so if you can see it, you can, you know, move in that direction. So I just wanted to highlight that piece, right? And sometimes people start pushing back big time. And, you know, I remember my grandmother who And you oftentimes hear the story of grandmothers praying for, you know, the family and so forth. And so I bring that energy to these conversations and, yeah, just say, this is where I’m standing, right? And I invite you to join me. So I just wanted to highlight that piece.
9:48Maceo: No, I appreciate that.
9:50Joshua Lee: Now, with respect to How I got to grad school, you know, social work as a profession, as a field, is dominated by women. And so I was in education, which is also sort of dominated by women. And when I got to the school, you know, sort of the, the evidence that there were more women and just a few men is that the men’s restroom was up on the 3rd floor where every other floor had women’s restrooms to accommodate them. And not a problem, right? But just, just sort of the evidence that --
10:32Maceo: We’re scarce.
10:34Joshua Lee: In real time. Yeah. So very sensitive to how I show up with respect to being in a space with women. And
10:48Maceo: What does that look like? Like, very soon, you know, I don’t think since you’re talking about the bathroom --
10:51Joshua Lee: Say that again.
10:53Maceo: I said I don’t get the sense you’re talking about the one bathroom. I said, so like, what, like, what does that look like?
10:57Joshua Lee: Yeah, you know, it’s, um, being honorable and respectful. And, um, you know, I’m a big dude, and so --
11:06Maceo: You are a very large dude.
11:08Joshua Lee: I remember this one, uh, school principal at the school where the 60 students were. She was petite, man. But she could walk. I mean, she would, you know, walk with presence, you know, with power, not to intimidate, but just, you know, this is how it’s going to go, right? And I really, really got present to sort of the dynamics between male and female just early on. Right? And, um, it’s just natural for me, respecting women, uh, and so forth. So, um, that’s sort of what that looks like, right? Um, as I, as I recall. And, you know, giving deference to women in leadership, uh, knowing that it’s tough.
12:02Maceo: What does deference mean?
12:03Joshua Lee: Yeah, just to, um, give a nod of appreciation, acknowledgement, and support.
12:13Maceo: Right?
12:13Joshua Lee: You are the leader, and I’m here to support that. I can, you know, I found that I can lead from anywhere in the room, from the front to the, to the back of the room.
12:25Maceo: Mm-hmm.
12:26Joshua Lee: In fact, oftentimes the back of the room is, is very important to support what’s going on in front of the room. And going into the University of Maryland School of Social Work, being a minority in the sense of gender, being a minority in the sense of being a Black male, was a very interesting dynamic. Although I went to a PWI, predominantly white institution, undergrad, so I was, you know, sort of used to the culture where number of Black students struggled.
13:04Maceo: Mm-hmm.
13:05Joshua Lee: And I had this one professor, Dr. Amanifu Harvey, who -- there were only 3 men, 2 Black males, African American males, and one white gentleman. And he pulled us aside. He was like, hey, we had a report that was due and wasn’t looking too good for us. So he pulled us out the room and just sort of said, hey, You are representing men in this field and you gotta bring it, right? And, uh, really appreciate that and really honor his, um, his legacy. He made his transition late last year. Mm-hmm. Um, and so I give honor and, um, you know, just a nod of appreciation for who he is and the work that he did, um, in his lifetime. and there are so many others who brought a sort of African-centered approach to social work and community engagement and support. And just the last thing about him, he sort of operationalized the Nguzo Saba, which are the 7 principles of Kwanzaa from a mental health social work perspective. So, I mean, that’s, sort of the work he did. And I really appreciate that. We as practitioners of color, Black in particular, have to keep those legacies alive to help our -- the people we’re charged to support, not as the one who knows it all, but as a -- Community of folks who can figure it out. And I’m just perhaps the guide, and they have the solutions to their challenges wherever they may be. I’ve always tended to empower people, young, within the mentoring program that I ran. For example, it was one-to-one mentoring where we attached a or matched an adult to a child. And in some cases that were -- that was not -- we didn’t have the ability to do that. So we became creative. And sometimes there were more than one student who got connected to a mentor. But in terms of empowering young people, so it started in the 2nd grade, but I’d say the 4th grade, the students who were on task and doing the things they were supposed to do went across the street during a portion of the day to mentor preschool students. There was a Head Start center across the street.
15:56Maceo: Oh, wow.
15:57Joshua Lee: Yeah. So, you know, as a mentor, quote unquote, for young people, what does that look like? It looks like reading books to them, helping them to transition from the bathrooms to the classrooms and going to the gym with them and so forth. So it’s each one teach one and each one give one, right? Paying it forward kind of thing. So that was exciting to be able to do that and support that effort. Those young people are now in their -- they’re close to 40 years old.
16:33Maceo: That’s super cool though. Yeah, I can’t even imagine, like, like, what is that, 6-year-olds mentoring 5-year-olds? I think that’s like a really impressive and like a cool way to start young people off, I guess, as they look at what it means to contribute to others and really be present to the difference it makes when, when someone’s there for you, but also when the script is flipped and you’re there for somebody else.
16:53Joshua Lee: Yeah.
16:54Maceo: I really like that. I like, like the notion of, I guess, defining how relationships can show up for us in a new way, because I feel like At 5 and 6, you don’t really have people your age showing up as like, like, like not really role models, but like as part of your support, I guess. So to kind of have that be a substantial part of culture, I guess, in your early education environment, I think that’s pretty cool. Pretty notable.
17:17Joshua Lee: Yeah. Yeah. Awesome.
17:19Maceo: I was kind of confused when you said you were in a mentoring program at first, first with second graders, like 60s. I was like, who’s mentoring him? I didn’t realize you were mentoring 60 second graders or a part of a structure for mentoring 60 second graders, first graders, and kindergartners.
17:31Joshua Lee: Right, right. So I think that’s
17:34Maceo: super dope.
17:35Joshua Lee: Mm-hmm.
17:36Maceo: And then I’m kind of a little bit more curious. I know you said -- I, I didn’t fully grasp the, the, the, the name of this professor you had. What was his name?
17:46Joshua Lee: Amanifu Harvey. Amanifu.
17:52Maceo: What’s the last name?
17:54Joshua Lee: Harvey.
17:55Maceo: Amanifu Harvey. And I’m curious if you can say a bit more about, uh, like how he operationalized Kwanzaa inside the mental health context. Like, I don’t really have like really any knowledge of like these 7 principles. So yeah, I’m just, uh, yeah, I think it’s cool.
18:08Joshua Lee: So, you know, Kwanzaa is, um, excuse me, was developed -- it’s probably 50-plus years now -- by, um, give me a second. Um, this brother was so bad he got 2 PhDs. Um, it’ll come back to me. But, um, so he developed that to bring a sense of culture, community to, um, to the United States. And so those principles are 7, and, um, I know I’m not gonna get them all, but they’re You know, starting with unity.
18:53Maceo: Mm-hmm.
18:54Joshua Lee: Right. So bringing a sense of collective community consciousness to the United States, particularly around the holidays, when people in America who may not have as much as others tend to feel like they’re disappointing their families if they’re not able to give them everything they want. So it was a cultural shift that I latched onto and really appreciated it because we didn’t have a lot growing up, right? And the emphasis in America is really on the gifts, when in the Black community it’s really on community and family. And so what got highlighted in Kwanzaa was the sense of community. You know, you can make -- Mm-hmm. your gifts to give to others, right? You can give the book -- give books to family and friends. And it was challenging for me to be like the only one in my family who really latched on to this concept when everyone else was sort of looking for the big gift and how much money, because at the end of the holiday season, those bills come around and the family goes deeper and deeper into debt. So I really appreciated the principles of unity, self-determination, collective work and responsibility, community, supporting the community with, with your dollars. There was one study, many studies actually. I’m not sure where it is today, but the dollar circulates within the Black community less than an hour before it goes outside the community. Whereas other communities, and even that operate within the Black community, their dollar stays and circulates, you know, days and weeks before it goes out to, you know, the white community. if at all, goes out to any other community. So that was important for me. And the last principle is -- well, first I gotta acknowledge kaumba, which is creativity, which I feel like I’ve been blessed to have that attribute in developing, for example, my coaching model. I guess we’ll get to that later.
21:27Maceo: Mm-hmm.
21:28Joshua Lee: But the last principle is Nia, which is purpose, right? And so you have the first principle was unity, and the last principle is purpose. So what’s the purpose of -- how I identified with, with it was, what’s your purpose in life and how are you serving the community, right? So he, Dr. Aminifu Harvey, really, um, again operationalized that as as not just principles to be sort of dusted off towards the end of the year around the holidays, but really it’s a lifelong and year-long sort of focus that brings about health, harmony, connection, interconnectedness, interdependence within the Black community. So I really appreciated that.
22:19Maceo: That makes sense. Shout out Dr. Aminifu Harvey. Yeah, I appreciate you taking time to, to share that with us, Joshua, because I do think a lot of things get, get lost with time. And I think this opportunity just kind of, you know, represents people, community out here listening to what it is that Dr. Amanifu Harvey worked so hard to cultivate and make accessible. Yeah. Like you said, there’s still few Black men in the, in the mental health field. So if this is a contribution that a Black man made, I definitely want to give it a platform. That’s what the We Them Niggas podcast is for.
22:50Joshua Lee: Yep. And I just remember the originator of Kwanzaa, um, who is, uh, Dr. Ma’Alana Karenga. Dr. Karenga.
23:01Maceo: Uh,
23:02Joshua Lee: yeah, he’s badass with, uh, 2 PhDs, and he’s still living. He’s, um, still in, in this realm and made such a powerful, uh, contribution to African Americans. And really the United States.
23:17Maceo: Hmm, I got that. And I guess we can’t -- we can move along. Like you were saying, you want to get towards the -- your coaching. I’m interested as well, uh, and kind of how you went from like being in grad school to social work, having that clinical background. Um, so then you became a counselor now? Like after grad school for social work, you entered counseling as a career?
23:40Joshua Lee: Well, yeah, social work Um, and became a therapist. Yes.
23:44Maceo: And so what was that transition like? What did that part of your life look like?
23:47Joshua Lee: Well, it was, um, very rewarding, you know. Um, as a young social worker, I brought, I think, innovation, creativity, spontaneity to the role. I went into public schools. I worked with young men in group homes. And if you try to nail down a young person for a sit-down counseling session for 60 minutes, you got another thing coming. And so I had to be very creative to support them, um, to, you know, to deal with whatever they had to -- whatever life challenges they were experiencing that sort of landed them in, in a group home, you know. So I had to bring, um, board games. We had to go, you know, outside and toss footballs around, play basketball, arts and crafts, and, uh, so forth and so on to, one, get them to trust me.
24:58Maceo: Mm-hmm.
24:59Joshua Lee: And then secondly, get them to sort of begin to deal with the histories of trauma and/or neglect that they at a young age dealt with. Rewarding in the sense that, you know, some of them, many of them, I believe, got some life lessons. They engaged for an hour a week. And sort of the progression, right? I was working with 2nd graders. I was doing arts and crafts stuff with them. And then -- I started working with teenagers, so I brought that sense of fun and play to that environment, which some of them have dealt with or had to deal with very adult-like issues and challenges.
25:46Maceo: Mm-hmm.
25:46Joshua Lee: And so that led to sort of the psychodrama piece, which is supporting people to tell the subjective truth of their reality in action.
26:00Maceo: Hmm.
26:00Joshua Lee: Where it’s like at the intersection of psychology and the stage. More deeply, if you break up the words psyche as part of psychodrama and drama, psyche from Latin is soul, plus drama means action. So it’s the soul in action, right? The self in action. And that to me was very fascinating. And it was an extension as I got older, no longer working with young people, but working with adults who were once young, facing some of those challenges I just mentioned.
26:46Maceo: Mm-hmm.
26:47Joshua Lee: And so there, there I go again, being able to bring a sense of innovation to the field with an eye towards the community again. And so I’m not a therapist any longer, just the hustle and bustle of, um, you know, insurances and so forth. So I saw coaching as a viable option for me.
27:14Maceo: Mm-hmm.
27:15Joshua Lee: And so I bring -- so you’ll have a certified coach who has a mental health background. And I got clear for myself because when I was a young social worker, there was a clear delineation between social work or counseling and coaching, as coaching was beginning to become more and more prevalent. I mean, people now coach -- you can get coaching to you know, uh, make tape or something, you know, just an expertise that you have. You call yourself a coach, you know, being a bit flippant, but, um, those lines are, are being blurred now, whereas before they weren’t. And so coaching, particularly during COVID became very viable, um, for me. And so I’m down in the coaching realm, solidly in that realm.
28:12Maceo: Yeah. Yeah. No, I was like, you mentioned psychodrama briefly and like the transition. And so I’m kind of interested, like, how did you first hear about psychodrama? I know you just kind of described what it is. Congratulations on your certification. I know we were just up in Baltimore to visit you, to support you inside that. And I’m excited. I would say it was a phenomenal experience and I’m happy to share about it, if that’s okay.
28:32Joshua Lee: Yeah, absolutely.
28:34Maceo: Yeah. So I feel like what was 2 weeks ago now, 2 weeks ago, myself, my friend Miance, and some other, some other young people that Joshua has worked with and contributed to, as well as some of our other friends showed up out in Baltimore for Joshua to be --
28:46Joshua Lee: And we got to put young in context.
28:47Maceo: Young in context. Okay, you could go for it.
28:50Joshua Lee: What? No, you say. Yeah, because I was just talking about second graders. Young.
28:55Maceo: No. Yeah, college students, college age, you know, 20 to 26, I think was generally the age range we were all inside of there. I think actually there was, there was 18-year-old, 18-year-old. Yeah, but the It was really like, I wouldn’t really say I’m a spiritual person. Like, I went to Quaker camp and I liked singing songs there because I feel like maybe kind of put me in more of an existential kind of conversation thinking about stuff. But I really did kind of like when you say soul in action, I feel like that really resonated with me this time because of getting to see the person that we saw be the protagonist really like be expressed in the conversation around what he was dealing with, but also around what a resolution would look like. And seeing kind of in action what, what, like, what after resolution would look like. And maybe that’s not where we are right now, but I think it’s really inspiring to have the possibility really be solid, not only for him but for us, because I think it definitely left me inspired, you know, what difference it can make to contribute to people and supporting them on getting to where they want to be. And in this case, our protagonist took us to like the edge of the universe, and I was like, whoa, like, if all your stuff was handled, this is what you’d do? You’d take us to the edge of things so we could really get like the -- like the world-class view we deserve. Yeah. And I just thought that was like -- I got goosebumps. And when I get goosebumps now, I think of it as like more of a -- like, I think I do kind of think of it kind of spiritually or as like more of like a nonverbal perception that my body might have. So for me, it definitely was significant. I leave it as like an impactful moment. So I was really appreciative of being able to not only meet your wife out there, Stephanie, at a church which is very evidently near and dear to you both, but also to get to see some of that community that you contribute to on a more of a regular basis, more locally. in the city that you say is so wondrous?
30:31Joshua Lee: Wow. Yeah, man, I could say so much about, you know, the work that I’m trained to do to help people tell their stories, right? And it’s being able to externalize or concretize that internal world. And, you know, the theme of this young person’s psychodrama had to do with being weighed down by like chains, right? And so that’s an internal sort of feeling, right? And it does wear on the body, but we want to concretize that. And so there was someone who played the role of a chain, and then there were -- the chain was sort of too light, and we were -- we made it heavier by adding more people onto the chain, right, to help weigh him down, to get a sense of not to you know, subjugate him to more struggle, but to really get him to feel that feeling, the thoughts and the emotions that come with it, so he can expel it, if you will, from his body energetically. And then we went to the edge of the universe, as it were, to see what it was like. If you, you know, have an imagination, And we indeed are blessed as human beings to have the ability to have surplus reality, which is the extension of reality. Sometimes that extension of reality cures cancer, right? The extension of reality cures cancer. It’s the same thing when I say that vision gives way to actions. Right? And so if I’m seeing Baltimore now as the greatest city, I’m suspending the reality that says that the numbers of violent acts are X, Y, and Z, right?
32:26Maceo: Mm-hmm.
32:26Joshua Lee: And so if we can sort of, what do you call it, put our disbelief on a shelf, right, for a moment, only for a moment, right? And then just get present to, oh, what it would be like to be you know, bopping around on the edge of the universe, right? What’s out here that we can bring back to our so-called reality? And the group started naming things, you know, they started naming, you know, positive things, positive things such as, you know, love and connection and freedom and, and so forth. So psychodrama provides that that avenue and that vehicle for people to again explore the elements of their -- where they get stuck. And in the framework of my coaching model, which is called the Game Plan for Better Living, you know, what game are you currently playing that has you stuck and get those results? And then let’s figure out a way to overcome the -- those opponents. And come back to the real situations, real situation scenario resourced, you know, with strength, with more lightness, with imagination, creativity. And from that psychodrama collective of young adults, right, to face that situation newly. Right. And it’s -- I love it. Love to be able to do that.
34:07Maceo: Yeah, I like what you really said about the notion of walking out with new resources. And I never really considered like this term extended reality, but I kind of -- I would say I feel like I get what you mean. Like the same way my vision allows me to see opportunities for action out there in my local environment, like kind of what you’re saying, like being present to the notion that Baltimore is the greatest city in the world. There’s a lot of opportunities for action to take to really maintain that future and live inside of it fulfilled. So like, it does land for me. And I think even inside of like walking out of that situation, like I wasn’t the protagonist, but I feel like if I were walking out of the situation with like -- I’ve done psychodrama group work with you inside the men’s group like 2 years ago coming out of COVID And that was really my first time like seeing it in action, hearing about it, having any exposure really to this, this methodology for internal work. And The idea of coming out with like, I feel like resources really is like an understatement, maybe not an understatement, but just not, not descriptive enough. But I feel like you’re walking out with a whole new relationship to how you can respond, to what actions you might take, to even like, it’s not just your perspective anymore because you’ve presented it to a group. You’ve been able to, to have them participate in what yourself looks like and gotten their perspective on how yourself shows up in a way that kind of allows you to be Um, not like self-critical in like, uh, like, like a negative way, um, but more maybe more self-aware or self-assured in certain -- inside of what’s going to be a healthy way to respond to what’s showing up for us. Um, and I really want to -- yeah, I really just wanted to say that because I really did think it was so impactful. And I am very excited for you to continue doing that kind of work because it is something I’ve only really experienced with you, but that has, uh, left me excited when I did it with you, like personally in the group, but also at your certification, I was really excited and touched and moved and inspired, uh, seeing our protagonist, your protagonist, um, really like come out of it. It felt like in a very mental space that then he walked into it,
36:00Joshua Lee: right?
36:01Maceo: I don’t think every 30 minutes does that,
36:03Joshua Lee: right? And, you know, speaking of the, the men’s group, I did a number of, um, uh, like 8 to 10 week long, uh, men’s groups online, and we had men from across the country, older men. I think the oldest one was about 60, you know, late 60s, mid to late 60s. And we had you all as 17, 18-year-old, 19, and 20-year-olds who experienced each other’s stories, right? The older gentleman would say, I choose you, Misaeh, to play my younger self. right, going through these challenges. And because you remind me, you got the same kind of energy I had, you know, when I was your age. And then for the -- and that was powerful for them to experience that, like they get to relive, you know, themselves through another person in telling their stories, right? And then from your perspective as a young adult’s perspective had an opportunity to play a major role in an older man’s story, right? Mm-hmm. And, and I -- the responses and remarks that I got was like, wow, I never imagined that I could play and be impactful, um, in another man’s -- older man’s story. Right? Like, that was amazing. Like, I can contribute to older men, whereas all along they say we need to seek, you know, support and guidance from the older men. And it’s not to exclude that one, but wow, I get a chance to do that, and I can do that in psychodrama.
37:50Maceo: And what does that mean to you?
37:52Joshua Lee: Oh, it means everything because it’s bringing those 2 worlds together. you know, where the older men can show their sides of vulnerability. Mm-hmm. With younger men, they don’t have to worry about being judged or for the mistakes they may have made early in life. Indeed, those mistakes make you stronger. I believe if it doesn’t kill you, it makes you stronger, you know, kind of thing. And then for the younger ones to sort of Oh, I don’t have to reinvent the wheel, or this is -- wow, this has been done before. I don’t have to, you know, feel like I’m the only one doing it, positive or negative, right? And so sort of the baton gets passed both, uh, future back and present forward.
38:42Maceo: Hmm, I got that.
38:45Joshua Lee: Yeah, I just, I just made that up off my dome, so Hey man, future back and present forward.
38:51Maceo: You’re pretty much a rapper. I hear it off the top. Stop playing with him,
38:56Joshua Lee: silly rapper.
38:57Maceo: And, uh, I’m curious, like you shared about kind of like the, the distinction there was when you were in, in grad school for social work at UMD, um, between, uh, like social work, uh, being counselor and coaching. Um, I know like you shared with me before personally that Landmark was a part of that transition. I’m interested in hearing kind of about that, that part of your life when you were more heavily involved in Landmark.
39:20Joshua Lee: Yeah, uh, had a buddy to share the possibility of, um, seeing life, doing life differently. Um, very good brother who I love and appreciate, Andre Turner. Um, he is a part of a collective of men who are both professional and conscious. Not like woke, like nothing wrong with that, but before there was woke, there was consciousness, you know. Um, and it was my first time coming out of college, coming back home, that I would be able to meet a group of men, and it started with the older gentleman I said earlier who supported the community to heal, were part of a men’s society group of Black professional men who had such a deep and abiding love and appreciation for African everything -- culture, lifestyle, We even have African names. We went through an adult rites of passage program, 16+ weeks. And for me, it was -- Wow. Yeah, you know, going into college or even growing up, you either had to be the radical African, you know, folks or nationalists, or like in academia, Right? And I found that these 2 worlds could collide and be, you know, powerful together, right? And so I took part in that men’s group, the Rites of Passage program, where we had to study African culture. We had to You know, so we bring in the, the academic piece, right, as well as, um, uh, you know, sort of displaying our physical prowess in a way that we had to, you know, chop down trees. The discipline, right? So how to --
41:46Maceo: Trees.
41:47Joshua Lee: Be able as a man to support your family and support your community, where we, um, chop down a tree. We had to swim in the Atlantic Ocean. We had to crawl through what we call the bog, which is sort of the -- when the low tide is present around a body of water, there’s the mud and the, you know, the stuff that our ancestors had to -- go through, like literally crawl through to get to freedom. So it sort of symbolized that only for a brief moment of sacrifice for us, but they had to endure that for years and years and indeed generations.
42:37Maceo: Hmm.
42:37Joshua Lee: So really just a deep, deep experience of -- so we went to the African village of Onyantungi, which is in, um, South Carolina. So we’re really down on the Atlantic, that culture, Geechee culture. Real awesome experience. Uh, and the men’s group was called Alkabelon, which means, um, Society of Brave Men.
43:09Maceo: Hmm.
43:10Joshua Lee: Right? So, again, as a young man growing up in Baltimore, that was just like another worldly experience. But I got to bring it back to the community, right, with a sense of our people are great people. Mm-hmm. Even though things may look the way they look currently, the folks from my generation could make a difference in that way, right? So I brought that to the mentoring program with the young people. I brought that to social work, you know, as I grew professionally. I worked in the school system years ago. And so I’ve brought that sense of energy of loving our young people and supporting them to become the best that they could. Could be.
44:04Maceo: I got that. And these are the same gentlemen you shared that you encountered when you were like in your early 20s, after the, after the young man had passed away. These are the young men that you found community with?
44:13Joshua Lee: Yeah, yeah. And you mentioned, uh, Landmark. So, um, thanks for this, by the way. It’s given me an opportunity just to reflect on my own life and how I got to be where I am today, and even bringing all of that experience and training and skills development to meeting you all, right? But Landmark was a part of it. Landmark is an international organization for professional and personal growth and development. And I stayed in that system for about 12 years. Andre Turner, my buddy, shared what he got out of it. And I was like, wow, um, I want some of that. And it took a while to actually, you know, get to the Landmark Forum, which is the foundational program weekend course, because I was just -- I couldn’t see it. I couldn’t see where what I was currently doing was, um, gonna get me to where I really wanted to go, which is to, you know, when you’re a fish and you’re swimming in the fish water, you can’t tell that it’s dirty.
45:36Maceo: Mm-hmm.
45:36Joshua Lee: Right? Only someone on the outside can see, oh my goodness, that’s dirty water. We need to change it kind of thing.
45:43Maceo: Yeah.
45:44Joshua Lee: And it’s not about changing you know, because you’re, you’re lacking something, but it’s really adding to, enhancing, and sort of creating a synergistic effect on your life that’s just so powerful and profound, you know. So for example, um, I did the Landmark Forum, and in 2005, almost, uh, what, 20 years ago, right? And one of the biggest breakthroughs I got was, you know, seeing myself as the youngest in my family living in West Baltimore. And we had a lot of, you know, challenges within our family. And I didn’t have to become a -- no longer become a victim of those circumstances, right? Mm-hmm. So real specifically, Um, you know, I had 2 parents growing up, and, um, they eventually got a divorce. But, um, I’m being the youngest, was able to get everything I wanted for Christmas, you know. And so around a couple weeks before my 10th birthday, I, I put together everything my list of everything I wanted. My birthday is in November, so I wanted, I wanted the, the old Colts. We had the Colts back then in Baltimore. So I wanted all of their paraphernalia. I wanted the bedding, you know, I wanted the lamps and the, you know, pillows and so forth. I wanted clothing. I was in the Husky section of the JCPenney catalog and I was just writing down everything, man. And, you know, because I felt like that I was able to get those things, right? Mm-hmm. So I had, um, a sheet that was filled on the front. I had, um, stuff on the back, uh, neatly handwritten, uh, the prices next to them. I went through from the front of the JCPenney catalog to the back of the JCPenney catalog, man. and tallied up. I was pretty good at math, so I added up everything, and I was pretty sure. I checked it, checked it twice, and I was excited to show this to my mom when she came home. And so, first floor, she -- I could hear her jiggling keys to come in, and I excitedly ran over to her and said, Ma, Ma, this is the stuff I want for my birthday. And almost didn’t give her a chance to come in the door fully, right? Mm-hmm. So she came in, took her coat off, looked at the sheet, and she goes, no, you can’t have this. She balled it up and threw it down and walked away. And in that moment, an almost 10-year-old made a decision about life, that I could no longer trust the people I love to make me feel happy and loved. and safe in this environment. So as a -- and, you know, working with young people, you know, realizing we do that as children. What’s wrong with me when mom yells at me? Or even when the parents fight with each other, argue, fuss, and fight, it must be because of something I did, right? We’re very egocentric in that way. developmentally appropriate, however, right, for young people. So as an almost 10-year-old, I made that decision. And from that point on, until I did the Landmark Forum, I hated my birthday,
49:39Maceo: right?
49:39Joshua Lee: Mm-hmm. There was nothing she or anyone else could do to, you know, sort of make me feel good about this because My defense mechanism was set, and never again would that happen, right? They got close on my, my 16th birthday, and my girlfriend at the time helped. She set me up real good, and, you know, we, uh, celebrated my birthday.
50:08Maceo: That’s sweet.
50:09Joshua Lee: Yeah, but that didn’t last too long because I made a promise to myself, right? This can’t -- it’s like the waiting for the other shoe to drop. And all right, this is good, y’all got me, but I’m not going to chance it next year, right? So I did the Lamrim form when I was probably, uh, mid-30s, and I got that. I made that -- this -- that’s that 9-year-old, almost 10-year-old, made that decision to not trust people.
50:38Maceo: Yeah.
50:38Joshua Lee: And man, when I got that, I should -- and so the other piece of it is Because my birthday is so close to the holidays, the holidays were miserable for me. You know, I couldn’t wait till the new year for life to get back to normal, right? And so that’s why I sort of jived with Kwanzaa, right, where the emphasis was not on gifts. And, you know, there’s no accident, man. And I’m so glad I got that. early on, uh, the notion of Kwanzaa so I could live my life and not suffer,
51:16Maceo: you
51:17Joshua Lee: know, um, as it were. And so that December -- or that, yeah, it was Thanksgiving, right? I would either -- prior to me doing the Lamor Forum, I would -- even when I started my own family, I would either come late, we’d all get there like late, right? Mm-hmm. or not at all. And so I started training my family to expect that from me. And so when, um, the year 2005, Thanksgiving, I went to my mom early, she was still cooking. And she turned around because I still had keys to the house, and she almost dropped the bucket I’m sorry, dropped the pot that she was cooking in. She was like, what are you doing here? Like, you know, what’s wrong? I was like, no, nothing’s wrong, Ma. I did this weekend program a couple months ago, and I realized that a 9-year-old made that decision, right? And I know you’ve been trying your heart out ever since to, you know, make it up to me. I’m not sure if she sort of saw it like that. but you tried to make me happy for, for all those years, and I refuse that. You know, we oftentimes, as so-called victims of what other people do, we hold on to stuff and they move on with their lives. That’s why the people in recovery say, man, those people are, um, you’re renting space in your head.
52:52Maceo: Yeah.
52:53Joshua Lee: Right?
52:54Maceo: You see
52:54Joshua Lee: what I’m saying? So, um, Um, shout out to the folks who work with people in recovery. So, um, really doing some important work there. Absolutely. And so I was just like free from that decision of a 9-year-old to live my life. Um, and so what happened as the holiday season continued that year was that Oh my goodness, I was -- I had gone to the store, bought a whole bunch of stuff, and I said to Mom, if you want to make up for, you know, those years that I was being a butthole, you can, you know, get me some gifts, but I’m good now. You can, you know, relax and sort of, um, you know, my heart went out to her as well because she really did try to make a difference, um, in the in the face of me saying, oh, hell no, I’m not trusting that again, right? Mm-hmm. So, you know, I now appreciate, I still have the Kwanzaa piece that says that, you know, people shouldn’t go into, that one day should not break, you know, the family’s budget, right? And so throughout the year, I’m giving, you know, gifts and showing my appreciation, and I’m not gonna let some, uh, culture to determine how I’m being, particularly if it’s a, uh, if it adversely affects the, you know, my family and community, right? You know, I’m like that with, you know, Valentine’s Day. It’s Black Love Day for me, right? And it’s not just on this one day of the year, you know.
54:35Maceo: So how often is Black Love Day?
54:36Joshua Lee: Oh, it’s 365.
54:39Maceo: Okay.
54:41Joshua Lee: 366 and on leap years, right? And so I get a chance to, uh, free myself up from the, the hustle and bustle and anxiety of those holidays, which, uh, tends to be commercial anyway in this country.
54:56Maceo: I hear that. And I guess I’m curious as well, like, how your work with Landmark -- like you said, you have 5 daughters, you have 5 siblings, you say you have 5 daughters. I was like, whoa. And 5 grandkids. So you really have a whole like a whole, like, living, breathing community around you all the time. How did your work with Landmark shape -- A whole basketball team. Yeah. How did that -- how does -- how did your work with Landmark shape how you show up for them?
55:19Joshua Lee: Oh, um, well, you know, so the interesting thing is, um, I was in my first marriage
55:30Maceo: and
55:30Joshua Lee: it wasn’t a healthy relationship, right? And Um, my ex-wonderful mother, she has been there, you know, for and with the children 100% of the time. I respect her for that. But we were just, um, 2 young people growing up and growing apart. And, um, you know, that impacted the family. And so I moved more into the Landmark piece. And I just felt like I was being drawn in, not as like I can’t help myself, but I really felt empowered. I really felt a sense of personal agency now to control and be responsible fully for my life. And I get to bring that back to the community. I mean, like, you know, um, wow, can this get even better? And but unfortunately, she didn’t see it that way, right? Um, and, you know, we eventually separated, got a divorce. And it’s almost like, um, I heard an older brother say that, you know, the revolutionary -- it’s the revolutionaries dilemma, right? If you pour yourself into the community as you feel like it’s your calling, sometimes the family gets neglected, right? So it’s the sort of the age-old notion of that it’s, it’s a dilemma, right? Mm-hmm. It feels, you know, it fills a void in some ways. It feels to be able to help others and feel appreciated. You get that sort of immediate gratification. Sometimes it has to be -- when you get older, you realize that it’s a delayed gratification. You know, Dr. King said, I may not get there with you, right? In his famous speech, Mountaintop Speech, right? But in the moment when people, you know, Mm-hmm. say they appreciate you. It really feels like you’re on mission. It feels like you are, um, in your -- what we, the Africans, say, your ashe, right? Your God-given destiny. And that was the case for me. And then, you know, the collateral damage of any divorce, I believe, are the children. Um, but I had to landmark helped me to sort of speak up for myself and no longer be the invisible parent. Because I was raised, the women do the stuff in the, you know, in the household, and the men, you know, go out in the street to provide, right? And when I was working 2 or 3 jobs, um, I’m not at home. And if home is not the best, then my absence is Not really felt. I’m just providing. We grew up and we grew apart. Um, and anytime there’s a, you know, parents are moving apart emotionally, losing sight of the commitment and in various ways, and the children become, you know, adversely impacted by that. affected by that. And so, um, now, um, you know, have adult children, have, um, one daughter who has 3 children, the other have 2 -- well, has 2, one in college. And, um, you know, so we’re just trying to, um, heal the wounds of the past, right? And I think the, the 2 who have children really understand, you know, that things happen inside of relationships. That, you know, I said to one of them recently, you know, being in family is a journey, you know, not a destination, or certainly not a sprint. And so where there’s heartache and major disappointments and hurt and pain, you know, that could last a lifetime. And sometimes in some respects, you spend a lifetime trying to unravel that. And so, you know, as they’ve gotten older, sort of gone out and experienced life on their own terms and their own ways, now we can have -- adult conversations that look at the past as, you know, sort of, you know, asking the questions that they had questions about and getting complete and becoming whole and complete as a result of that. Right. So I’ve, you know, shared with my children what I’m Things I did, things I didn’t do, the things they may have had holes in their narratives about, and really like, oh my goodness, you know, um, I didn’t realize that. And so as a young person, you, just like I did, I made a decision about how I would be about my birthday. Um, and so they made their own decisions about themselves within the context of the family. And so now as adults, we get to see things differently and newly even. And so it’s been great to be able to revisit some of those things. And it goes, you know, Absolutely. No, it wasn’t that, it was this, right? Or not completely that, it was more of this kind of thing. So, and I’m always open to have those conversations, those healing restorative kind of conversations with them.
1:01:46Maceo: Yeah, it’s beautiful. It’s beautiful to be on the same page about things and really be able to be present with one another. I love that. And I, like, I was asking you about that, like, specifically because, like, you shared that you have 5 daughters, um, and, like, sharing about, uh, like, for me, I know Landmarks definitely impacted me and my relationships and, like, how I live at home. And even, like, as you share about, like, the, the revolutionary’s dilemma, for example, like, Like, my childhood at home was like not one I adored by any means. Like, I went to all-boys boarding school, and I really appreciated kind of getting out of the house at the end of middle school. And it is kind of where I found myself finally a sense of belonging, because I was at a boarding school with a lot of other young men of color from inner-city environments. But I think that really what -- where that left me was really being disconnected from my family life, from my home, to what my parents were dealing with, to what my sister’s dealing with, to what my grand -- mother and her sister are dealing with. I feel like I just got really, uh, like I ended up having a very like self-centered relationship to life because there was like really no immediate family that was a part of my day-to-day life. Um, and so I just couldn’t really have like a developed regard for them, or at least like the regard I did have started to dissipate and maybe start to emerge at more of a distance. Um, and so in college, a lot of my, my work, like in Landmark they have you do projects, and my projects were oriented around the communities that I had at school. And so a lot of my thought and efforts went into there, whether it was trying to cultivate a mission statement for my fraternity that I was in, which was a predominantly white fraternity, Jewish fraternity, whatever you want to say. Jewish people don’t necessarily always want to be regarded as white, but is it a primarily Jewish fraternity, question mark? But the -- and then even on campus, like, I -- there was an event like around Halloween my sophomore year where a lot of students were outside and there was costumes being worn, quote unquote, that were culturally appropriative, but For me, what was really moving was seeing a lot of students share about their experiences being minorities on campus, that were really just having a hard time finding a sense of belonging, finding a sense of purpose, finding a sense of it being worth being there and paying money, you know, to be on campus to learn and invest in oneself. And for me, that kind of left me really present to how much of a difference it would make if students did have, like, an environment where they felt like they could be present, where they felt like they belonged, where they felt like they were worthy and appreciated. And kind of where they had the stage set for them to be able to succeed. And that kind of left me getting involved on our, on our, on our campus and our student government. And we actually launched a course focused on the, like, intersectionality and understanding the history of anti-Black racism in the United States, where students that are interested in that subject matter can opt in and kind of really be a part of a really in-depth conversation around that from their first moment on campus. So an opportunity to really leave people that are really interested really just familiar with the way that our personal differences, the way we show up in the world, whether it’s culturally, racially, in terms of nationality, so many different things that impact our experience of the world. You know, the way they shape our interactions with others and our judgments, assessments of others and things like that. So students could really be more powerfully present and related to what our differences really mean and the opportunities that they are for us to learn about one another and the way the world works. Something that really I thought was really cool was hearing you share about your work working with young people in 2nd grade, 1st grade, and then working with college students and people in high school, and then even working with older men. Like, I feel like it’s really cool to -- like, I feel like for a lot of people, even for me, like, I’d never really thought about it until you just said that, that, you know, you can choose to be a student of the world and really get to see, you know, how these different issues that aren’t really singular or unique, but that are more, I guess, commonplace than we might like to admit, or that we might every day have to deal with or acknowledge. I’m getting to see how they impact people at all stages of life. And I think it’s really cool that you were able to do that. I think that’s super cool because I think, like, you can forget that in a lifetime you really do have the space, power, and opportunity to do that. I think there’s a lot of other things you can spend your time doing that maybe aren’t that. So I definitely want to acknowledge you for doing that and for being a stand for the community of Baltimore that you are. And I heard your invitation that was for all of us, not just me, but everybody listening as well. And I absolutely accept that invitation. I think Like you shared about having older men have a space where they can be vulnerable. And that’s really like what I’m interested in. Like, I feel like at my all-boys boarding school with a lot of young men of color, there really weren’t spaces for us to look at our internal lives, our emotions and things like that. It was very like physical life oriented. Like we had the sports requirement, we had to go eat, you had to go to class. And it was like, you maybe play video games, but like, like you didn’t have like super intimate personal relationships on campus. I did. And I had like, I made a lot of good friends there. And I have the experience that a lot of other students had things they struggled with but didn’t necessarily have the space to have conversation about. What I’m really interested in is, like you say, you were working 2 to 3 jobs at one point in time, and I’ve seen my dad work a lot at other points in time. And even just being in school myself, I’ve -- I know it’s not just my dad, I know my mom -- like, I’ve seen people work so hard, you know, that they maybe forget or end up just out of touch with what it means to take care of ourselves. And I’m really interested in people having the space and the awareness in their lives to know they’re taking care of themselves so they can show up, take take care of other people, um, without really necessarily having to, to make the expense of -- not maybe the expense, but you were talking about that dilemma, you know, where, where, like, it’s the We Them Niggas podcast, and that includes my family. It’s not just about, you know, the men in my life who I think of as my niggas, quote unquote, but also the women in my life who helped to, to build the life that I get to live in the first place as well, and the women that are working to build, to build a better future, you know. Mm-hmm. I think nigga for me is, is not really gendered, um, and I really just appreciate you really being a stand that people have that space, you know, to look at their internal lives and to really come into every day with a really firm stand around who we are and how we show up inside of our circumstances, our circumstances not being defining of who we are, who we get to be, or how we contribute to others. I just think that’s really worthwhile. And so I’m really honored once again to have you on the podcast and excited now to kind of turn our attention more towards like your work around life coaching now that you’re really focused on. Um, and so I know we talked now about Landmark and about your, your, uh, social work experience and, and, and your life leading up to this point. Uh, do you have anything else to say? Kind of like, I know you have your life coaching now, it’s called The Game Plan. Uh, do you have anything else to kind of, I guess, speak to how you develop the lens that you have around life, which is Game Plan oriented? Maybe you could just even share about what The Game Plan is. I think that’s a -- this opportunity.
1:08:03Joshua Lee: Yeah. Um, you know, as you were talking, really stirred some reflections around, you know, the mental health of and well-being of boys and men, you know, the male along the life cycle. And, you know, being the youngest of 6 and a dad who, although he showed us a wonderful work ethic and example modeling in that way, in other ways he was -- a very violent guy, right? And so how do you -- I mean, domestic violence, you know, sort of relegated to the family, but also seen as a, you know, wonderful community guy. And so the complexities of human -- being human, right, particularly men, is what really piqued my interest. and had me to turn to mental health and the work I do with young men and men in general. And so being able to, as I’ve gotten older, you know, we are complex beings, right? And, you know --
1:09:18Maceo: Absolutely.
1:09:19Joshua Lee: What’s underneath the facade oftentimes of the moniker provide and protect, Right, is really, um, and don’t question, you know, just sort of, um, go with it. You gotta, you gotta always -- and nothing’s wrong with that. And my dad was a great example, but he also was a great example of what not to do, you know, with family and relations. Mm-hmm. And so, um, being able to go to graduate school and learn about the internal world of people and the psyche. And I was -- we were warned, we had a caveat from our teacher when we started learning about the pathology, you know, psychopathology of people. She was like, now don’t go home diagnosing, you know, your family and friends. Like, I knew he was DSM-IV XYZ disability code, that kind of thing. She was like, no, don’t do that. Do not do that. However, you get a sense, I got a sense of how people tell their stories that indicate the things that they struggle with. And men in particular, it’s like, All right, you are a giant in the community, but you are, you know, abusive at home, or you feel like a wimp at home, right? Like, how does that happen, right? Or you turn to drugs and alcohol to mask the things that you are vulnerable about and your frailties and how you see yourself, right? It’s like, it’s Mm-hmm. It’s so complex, right? And I’ve, through the Game Plan for Better Living, which is my coaching model, I started with middle school and high school students in Baltimore as I developed this. You know, I was inside the Landmark Framework when I developed it and brought a sense of play, lightness, Gamesmanship, meaning, you know, how do we see life as a game, right? And the more we can bring levity to that, the more it sort of unearths us from the sort of reality of that, right? It’s, it’s heavy, deep, and real when you can’t provide for your family, for sure, right? Um,
1:12:04Maceo: absolutely.
1:12:04Joshua Lee: And how can we make a game out of doing the things we need to do to get back above board with respect to that, right? And so I brought that to working with young people who were in an alternative school, right? Mm-hmm. And, you know, they are so brilliant and genius and crafty that how they manage their abusive backgrounds or relational traumas, as we’re starting to get more information on how that sort of manifests itself out in the community, major disappointments and upsets, is, you know, they would say to all the stakeholders around the table when they get kicked out of school or try to get back into I’m going to do all the things that I need to do, show up on time, get my grades up, be peaceful. Right? And as soon as the stakeholders disperse, they go back to doing what they oftentimes did beforehand that got them in trouble. So I saw that as a game that -- and I connected it to their core beliefs. Right. So what do you really believe about yourself and/or your situation? Right. And, you know, there’s a young person who gets into a fight because someone talks about his mother or grandmother. Right. And then when I asked the grandmother, it’s like, well, no, I don’t -- he should not be fighting over me. Right. So They have a core belief that tells them what to do and, and what not to do, right, at the same time. So oftentimes use the analogy of you’re a thief and you feel that to your core that it’s okay to take things from people, take advantage of people, so forth and so on, then you got actions that align perfectly with that. And you have non-actions that align perfectly with that. So what do I mean by that? You know, if you see something that you feel of value or you just want to have that’s not yours, then you’re going to take that. That’s the things you do. And the things you don’t do is be respectful to other people’s property, right? So it’s both/and as opposed to either/or. So that’s a game. It’s like a rule of life. And games have rules, right? I have -- when I work with homeless men downtown, there was a guy who spent -- he just came out of jail, 25 years in prison, and he had a -- he was adamant about, um, honoring his word.
1:15:01Maceo: Hmm.
1:15:03Joshua Lee: And so when -- I don’t know when he, he was able to loan somebody some money, but That was the thing. He said, the guy said he was going to give my money back today and he didn’t give my money back today. So I had to, you know, take care of him. I was like, wow, you’re on probation. You are being monitored closely by, you know, drug court and you are someone who honors your word, at least in this case, right? So let’s look at, let’s look at that. You’re honoring your word with respect to, you know, people in the community, but you jeopardize your, your life yourself, thus giving your word to the courts, right? That you would -- because you’re on probation, they’re giving you sort of a second chance, um, or else you got to eat that time if you get caught. And he started to think about that. Wow. Yeah. I need to start honoring my word here because if I don’t, I’m gonna wind up doing 20 more years in prison and I don’t wanna do that. So, you know, he started seeing things differently, right, about himself, himself and his life. And so the Game Plan is an opportunity to help people to see what games you’re really playing. Mm-hmm. Like going up under the hood Of your life and seeing what are the, you know, the levers and dials that sort of make you operate the way you do. And it’s not in a sort of critical, shame, blame kind of way, because you bring that to the conversation and it just gets deeper for you. You know, you get more entrenched when there’s shame. You know, shame impacts the body just like physical pain, right? And so you don’t want to go deeper into it. You want to bring some levity such that it sort of lightens the -- and sort of kickstarts a new way of looking at how to approach your life. And so when I bring that level of curiosity, and self-reflection, people start to get a new sort of thought about their lives and how they show up. Right. And so, I’ve developed this from a sort of a stick figure model to using psychodrama and action methods to really create a robust sort of system coaching model that helps people to Um, overcome, get resourced, like use their -- what assets, resources, internal, external resources that you have, and, um, overcoming.
1:18:00Maceo: What does that look like when you say internal, like external?
1:18:04Joshua Lee: Yeah, how you win your games before, you know, working with homeless men. They are the ultimate survivors. Right? On the streets.
1:18:15Maceo: Mm-hmm.
1:18:15Joshua Lee: And yes, they may, you know, have some physical wounds along the way. There was a guy who, in a drunken stupor, started fighting with another guy, and he broke a bottle across his eye, and he lost his eye, right? And so he came in, started coming into the center, and this guy’s a prolific writer. And he said, man, I could have died, but God saved me, you know, to be able to, to write, you know, the way in which I write. So I’ll take a, uh, you know, an L on an I to be able to continue my journey, uh, of being a writer, right? Uh, and so --
1:18:59Maceo: Yeah.
1:19:00Joshua Lee: I tried to get them to play a different game to help them see that another game -- because I don’t want to You know, you can defang, you know, animals to clip them, their, their paws, their nails, you know, or their fangs to protect them out in the wild. And so I don’t want to defang them. I want them to shift to a different game. It’s like whether you’re playing basketball, football, hockey, whatever, you still have the same basic skills that you need. agility, endurance, flexibility, you know, great hand-eye coordination, so forth and so on. And then you can play any of these games. You know, it’s like, um, um, Deion Sanders playing both basketball and -- I’m sorry, playing football and baseball, right? Mm-hmm. And so we go from playing a game of, of, sort of destroying your life to -- and survival -- to a game of, you know, triumph. And -- but using those same skills of tenacity, of your brilliance and creativity. You know, those young people were very ingenious of how to get around the system, right? But we’re now embedding integrity, you know, a sense of interdependence with others and, um, you know, being a solid citizen now. And many of those guys thrive in playing this new game once they feel like they were accepted for who they are, not the behavior. We separate the deed from the doer. And now, rather than being responsible for your life, allows you to go in a different direction, right? And so it sort of grew. The game plan grew from there, working with adults, so-called unprofessional adults to professional adults, right? Mm-hmm. And in corporations and organizations as well, and getting them to see that they play games as well. Are you moving lockstep with the vision and mission of the state, of the organization? or you sort of playing a different game that derails that, right? And so I coach professionals throughout the country and, you know, in this game model, right? And since COVID I’ve taken a deep dive into being trauma-informed, right? Mm-hmm. For example, the sort of core element of the game plan is looking at your support system or your, or like your social network. And I have them sort of categorized as fans, coaches, referees, and teammates. Mm-hmm. If we were going to capture the video piece, you can see the model behind me, the image of the model behind me. And so I say, because life is a game. We all play games. And by the way, Paseo, when I said that to the homeless guys, they were like, no, no, Mr. Joshua, I ain’t playing no more games. That’s what got me here. Right? And I go, I had to say about 10 times, we all play games. We all play games. We all play games. But the context is that we have a core set of beliefs that has corresponding thoughts, feelings, and actions that govern our behavior just as surely as we are playing you know, a game of cards because there are rules to life and living. Okay. And so, we get a chance to play out what the opponents are. Many of them started to say, I’m my worst opponent. Right? And so, I go, wow, that’s interesting. So, it started off as a sort of interpersonal relational model. where, Maseo, you can be a fan of mine and I can identify people outside myself. Even folks who are deceased, like my grandmother is a fan of mine. She’s been deceased or transitioned for a number of years, but we still draw energy from those folks, right? And so we can identify them, sort of put them into buckets, and one person can be in multiple roles. Mm-hmm. And because of role theory inside of psychodrama, I really got a sense of what that really meant, right? But it was important to let them know that they are in within my game, right? And so sort of a recontextualization of games and game theory and role theory as well that has this model be very robust and powerful and potent that I can go into any environment and have them to just look at themselves inside of the mind of someone else. And so I would have people, say parents of these students that I first started off out with, to -- because they said, hey, I fought because of you. And then so --
1:24:24Maceo: Hmm.
1:24:25Joshua Lee: What does that actually mean? So we create a physical space for them to stand in -- fans, coaches, referees, and teammates -- and identifying the people who play these roles in their life and, um, having them to reverse roles with the player, right, gives them some perspective. It’s a perspective-taking and, um, a way to generate empathy from another person’s perspective. So Grandma might be deceased, or not even just deceased, but not present in that moment. But I can have the student to reverse roles with -- what role does Grandma play? She’s my coach. All right, well, let’s go to the coach’s space and reverse roles, mentally reverse roles. And you can even sort of, when you’re standing, you can physicalize, you know, the person you’re talking about. So she stands like this and she holds her hands like this. And when she gets excited, she does this with her hands and her face and that kind of thing. And yeah, so tell us, become Grandma right now. Well, I’m not a woman. Oh, that’s cool because we’re talking energetically, right? Men could play women and vice versa. So Grandma. Yes. What do you say about, you know, your grandson saying that he’s fighting because of you? Well, I don’t tell that boy to fight. In fact, we don’t teach that around here, you know. So you really get into bringing that person present instead of talking about that person. You actually become that person, and you can gain insights from that person just based on, you know, the voice voice that sort of comes through and the energy that comes through. It’s so exciting to see a young person -- I got a more recent example of working with some 6th graders where I have like a board version of the game plan. We were pulling out pieces, like game pieces, to the Adinkra symbols, which are African inspired virtuous words, and she picked friendship, right, uh, while we were sitting down. And then I asked her, I said, um, so you got a lot of friends? Yeah, not a lot of friends, but, you know, um, I got my, my friends, right? I said, do you, uh, sometimes get in trouble with them? She said, no, I don’t get in trouble with them. No, not really, you know. And so, okay, all right, cool. And so when she got up and I said, well, everybody pick a location -- fans, coach, referees, or teammate -- that you’d like to sort of end this session with. And she chose the coach’s space. And when you get to the coach’s space, you become someone else in your life. Yeah. that you would like to hear a message from. So she became her mother. And I said, hey, Mom, what do you say about Aaliyah and her friends? And she automatically -- it was like she just got transformed in a moment to this adult figure pointing her finger. She was like, hey, you got to be careful of the friends you keep. Right. Like, so Quickly, she was able to hear the voice of her mother with respect to friends and friendship and not say the, the polite thing, if you will. Right? So that’s the power of, of the game plan that is versatile and, um, very dynamic, um, that helps people to win their games, overcome their opponents, so forth and so on.
1:28:21Maceo: Yeah, that’s super dope. And like, really what’s, what’s lensed for me inside hearing you describe it on this instance is like, this is a, like, not like a tool for taking, uh, or finding practice around perspective-taking, which definitely is huge around, um, self-awareness. And like, even looking at, like you’re saying, the games that we’re already playing all the time in our lives, um, we might not necessarily be like super explicitly present to, um, and how those, those games are running our lives. But also what strategies we’re using to win those games, and also deciding if those games or, or habits or strategies are serving us anymore. Um, I really do feel like, like hearing you explain it, like, I get that it’s insightful because I participated. Um, but I appreciate your description, especially hearing you share more about role theory, because I haven’t heard you go so in-depth about that. And what you’re saying really about role theory is that it is the, the practice of, uh, perspective-taking in regards to specific individuals, right?
1:29:14Joshua Lee: Yeah, I mean, it is much deeper than that. It’s, you know, for example, that I’m a dad because I have children, right? There are complementary roles, right? Mm-hmm. You know, that the theory talks about, you know, so, you know, I’m not sure how much deeper you want me to go with that. But just essentially that we are developmentally, we develop even as infants coming out the, you know, firstborn out mom’s womb, um, being in a role, right? And being the role of the, the, uh, breastfeeder, right? Being a role of the, the pooper, right? The, you know, um, crier, uh, so forth. So it starts very early on. And the complementary role to a baby is the mother, right? Father to child, the husband to wife, that kind of thing. That’s a part of role theory. Mm-hmm. We have -- so those, the feeder, the pooper, those are psychosomatic roles because there’s no language we have. We just do the things that are there for us to do as newborns, right? Then we move to the psychodramatic roles, which gives us a sense of the -- that’s where the imagination comes in, right? We can, as children, we are, you know, I’ve been around enough children, they create their own worlds, right? Mm-hmm. It’s sort of wished-for roles and things they want to do where they can create, you know, we lose sight of that as we get older because we become more, you know, know, serious about life, but I say play is serious too, right? And so what you saw --
1:31:09Maceo: Yeah.
1:31:10Joshua Lee: With the psychodrama 2 weeks ago was us being able to go back to a developmentally appropriate time in our life where imagination and being free from, you know, the beliefs of the world was the thing that we -- that was like our job to do, right? And so being able to tap back into that gives us freedom as adults in dealing with the adulting things we have to deal with, right? And then there are the, the social roles of our profession, right? As a coach or former social worker, you know, you’re a student, you know, former student, now you work wherever you work, right? So it’s -- that’s a part of game, um, that’s a part of, um, not game theory but role theory. Right, um, that helps us to explain, uh, life, and it’s part of psychodrama.
1:32:06Maceo: That makes sense. Yeah, I appreciate you sharing more about that because, like I said, we really hadn’t talked too in-depth about role theory before this conversation. I feel like that’s the first time I really heard you mention it and explain it, so I do appreciate that. And I guess thank you for doing what you do. I appreciate you explaining it and sharing it with us as well. What is the, what’s the, what’s your game around this, this coming year around like what you’re up to? What games are you playing?
1:32:32Joshua Lee: Yeah. I am wrapping up a book about, you know, yeah, man. It’s been a couple years in the making and we’re down the home stretch now. It is about the Game Plan, right? It is about the growth and development, sorry, the growth and development of the Game Plan and how it’s a model for coaching that I would love to share with the world. And I think it’s taken so long because it’s so, um, you know, robust. I’m not saying that to brag, but it’s, it’s so -- it’s such a system that allows people to bring themselves to it. It’s a framework, right, that, uh, has, um, the ability to sort of be as small as tabletop you know, with, with objects, game pieces, or as broad as, you know, a room of 100 people. You know, if we have space to, to move around, and even if we don’t have space to move around, people can conceptually get -- all I gotta say is, you know, who are your fans in life, right? Who are your coaches, referees, and teammates? Mm-hmm. And people go off into their own reflections, their own minds about that. But just imagine bringing their bodies to the conversation and do what I call the walk in the 4 corners and show me what a fan looks like. And as people start, they start loosening, professionals start loosening up when they start walking, usually around the second time because they don’t want to seem -- Mm-hmm. The first round is like, yeah, I don’t want people to really see who I am. I’m at work and I have this persona that I want to maintain. But then, man, you coming around second time when I give you permission to, you know, be a super fan, right? And their version of a, you know, so they’re hooting and hollering. They are cheering people on and booing because fans, you know, they get upset when the game is not going or you’re not getting the results. in life. But it’s a metaphor, right? It’s a metaphor for how people live their lives and, and so forth. So to get them warmed up, I have them to walk the 4 corners, right? Yeah. And you should see when they get to the referee’s spot, man, that’s an opportunity to like really show some more energy in a sort of mean kind of way because sometimes the referee is seen as a very critical, um, you know, demeaning part of the game of life, right? And that oftentimes gets internalized, um, and we start to beat ourselves up the way we do, right? Mm-hmm. But the referee is a necessary element in the game. I can ask a 5-year-old what happens if there’s no referee? You know, they’ll still say that the game is, you know, people can go crazy and, uh, do anything they want to do and not follow the rules, right? So just a quick example there. I was working with the leadership, ministry leaders of a church, and oftentimes it is there’s one person who carries the energy of a referee, right? Like blowing a whistle, throwing a flag on what they see that is inappropriate or not going with the vision and mission of the organization. And it doesn’t have to be within ministry, within organizations as well, because I have those examples too. But they do it in such a way that sort of breaks bonds and relationships, right? However, you know, when I locate that person, or the group starts to point to that person -- so I’m not calling no names, but they start pointing at people -- Mm-hmm. As the referee, it is to redefine and recontextualize the necessity of the referee. You know, what happens if there’s no one here to you know, say that we’re out of order, right? And we just let things slide, or, you know, there are no boundaries, there are no, you know, no, you know, consequences even for, you know, the harm that’s brought to the community, right? Mm-hmm. So being able to recontextualize that person who typically shows up as, as the referee oftentimes bring harmony and peace back into the community of that, you know, the organization within that community, right? Mm-hmm. And so I just need to work with the referee to not leave people with the pointing fingers or the punishment, but they oftentimes have a deep abiding love for the organization and the work they do, so much, so much so that they’re willing to speak up about it. You see what I’m saying? And so --
1:38:00Maceo: Absolutely.
1:38:01Joshua Lee: Yeah. And so when I sort of say, hey, do you want to -- is your commitment such that you want to leave people broken, wounded, and feeling like they’ve been harmed? Or do you want to leave them with the love and commitment you have, such that you’re willing to uh, put yourself on the opposite side of, of the flow to say, stop, we’re not doing this right, right? So it’s like, no, I want to leave them with the love and commitment that I have. Okay, all right, well then we need to just tweak your -- the way you’re, um, calling people out and calling things out, right? And so, um, That’s a big, big part of the work, right? Is to -- and then are we able to hold ourselves accountable if we go into the internal space, right? And then how do we hold ourselves accountable? Again, if we are shaming and blaming ourselves, then that issue, whatever the challenge is, is only going to be counterproductive. and become even worse because, you know, um, what the hell, I might as well just go all out, as young people say. Um, we used to say throwing the baby out with the bathwater, you know,
1:39:27Maceo: and now they say go
1:39:28Joshua Lee: all out. Yeah, yeah. You know, I might as well -- you know, you, you accusing me of these things, or you are treating me like I’ve done these, these bad things, I might as well do those bad things, right?
1:39:38Maceo: Oh yeah, yeah.
1:39:40Joshua Lee: So, um, the game plan is robust enough to take an internal view. Are you your biggest fan, right? What do you say to yourself when you see yourself in the mirror in the morning or at night before going to bed, right? Are you cheering that person who looks back at you? Are you booing that person? You may not even say a word verbally, but the internal conversation is really what is important. And remember, vision gives way to actions, right? So
1:40:15Maceo: yeah, and I guess that kind of ties back to that notion of extended reality you were mentioning earlier. Yeah, and I, I definitely have been, uh, I definitely have been called out for showing up as taking some quote-unquote moral high ground. I’ve definitely definitely been, I feel like, informed that I’m a bad referee or maybe rude or, I don’t know, angry referee, whatever it might be. I don’t want to say whatever because I don’t take it as whatever. I do take it very seriously with my friends, people I care about say to me. Mm-hmm. But I definitely always have it, you know, coming from a place of like, I feel like we can be doing better, or maybe the way we’re showing up isn’t to the benefit of everybody involved. But it’s not necessarily my place to make people feel wrong about that. So I guess it has been an exercise around how do I show up as someone that can take perspectives, but also help other -- support other people in getting practices or finding ways to take the perspectives of others so that they might kind of see what I have to say, but also make sure that I’m really present to what other people’s commitments are, not just like acting as though their commitments don’t exist in the first place. It’s like I shared about like stuff at my college, like our initiative around that course. Like, it was super cool to see that course come to life. But it’s really easy to say the administration doesn’t care about these kinds of initiatives. It’s really easy to say all these different things. But, you know, the people that work at a college most of the time are there because they want to work at a college. They believe in education. They believe in supporting young people. And they really do see it as an avenue towards contributing to the future of the human race, of society, of what the world looks like. And I think that was something I always had to remind myself before I was critical of whether it was our president or people in student congress or other administrators, you know. that I really ought to be interested in what has them be here and so powerfully standing for students, you know, just people having the role of being students in society, people that can learn in a structured, safe environment. Safe for some, maybe not safe for all, but with the intention of creating that, you know. So I think that’s powerful. And I think, yeah, I’m excited for your book to come out. I’m excited to kind of get more of a thorough, in-depth look at what it is that, that I guess is shaping the lens through which you show up as a coach, um, as a friend, as a support system, as a community member. Um, and I encourage all my listeners to go check it out as well. Do you have a date for publish? Do you have like a -- how’s it being published? What’s it going like?
1:42:30Joshua Lee: Well, yeah, um, I would say mid-spring. Um, you know, I have a website that I’m getting re -- sort of built to prepare for its distribution. Um, I can give that now if you like, right? Uh, yeah, I love that. Um, www.thegameplancoaching.com. thegameplancoaching.com. And, you know, you can go there.
1:43:00Maceo: The link will be in the show notes. You can go there. And,
1:43:03Joshua Lee: um, you can go there now to see some of the things I’ve done already. Um, And, you know, just, um, I’m doing a number of things also. I think that was the original question. Uh, but, um, you know, also doing community events that before the pandemic we had done one in 2019 that had about 50 people in an art gallery looking at building community, to investigate some of the elements that was embedded inside of the artwork. You know, art, the beauty of art is that you can bring your own sort of meaning to it, right? Mm-hmm. And so there’s a local artist, Schroeder Cherry, from Baltimore, who’s This guy’s bad to the bone, right? He did an art exhibit on the Black barbershop. And so he would go to barbershops, take pictures, go back to his laboratory, AKA his basement, and start making these huge sort of -- I got one right over there, 3-foot by 2-foot, maybe bigger, mixed media. art pieces. It was a room full of them. And however, you know, it’s typical barber, somebody in a chair, barber’s cutting hair, blah, blah, blah. But these very interesting elements such as playing cards, such as keys built into them, right? And by the way, the framing of it is sort of -- incomplete because he said they are symbolic of chapters of life, right? And we’re not done until we’re done, right? Mm-hmm. And so they’re not completely framed. So we’re sort of a work in progress. And as I’m looking at it now, it has some broken mirror pieces on it and some -- even some of them had spent bullet casings and so forth. So like, what the hell is -- are these things -- what do these things have to do with the barbershop? So we connected. And so I brought what I do, which is helping people to explore, you know, their environments in an embodied kind of way. So we took each one of those elements such as the O and padlocks, right? Like, what the hell? So everybody has a sense or can identify in some way with the idea or the concept of a lock. Either you’ve been locked up, locked down, locked in, locked out, right? And we just explore that with our bodies. Like, what does that look like to be an angry lock, you know, and people are walking around, you know, with an angry look on their face. What is it like to be a free, unlocked, you know, lock that’s open and, you know, sort of engaging? And let me tell you, by the time we got to the third element, such as the mirror, because, you know, mirror is a reflection. What are the things you’re reflecting on? Then there was a moment, Maseo, where there was like a spark. I’m not sure exactly what it was at this point, but people started clapping and dancing and singing and just contributing to the organic sort of Um, catharsis of joy and energy and excitement. It lasted for seemingly 20 minutes, but it was only 7 minutes and 34 seconds. And when it sort of eased into this slow landing that people got present to, they were like winded and looking at each other, looking around like, what just happened? And can we do it again? You know, so it was very exciting, man. And people just shared what that experience was like. And so the psychodrama and the action methods helped me to go into communities where people feel like life is ending in some ways because of the violence and so forth. And let’s explore that, you know, and tell our stories about that. So, um, I’d also do that and also have workshops where I lead a team of practitioners in, you know, elements of the Therapeutic Spiral Model, which is -- I’ve been studying. It’s an international psychodramatic adaptation to classical psychodrama. I say international, I mean, like this thing has been into 40 different countries training their practitioners, and I get a chance to do that, um, you know, with, with the work that I do.
1:48:43Maceo: All right. And the men’s group I did with you was with the Therapeutic Spiral Model, and we had another gentleman from Brazil or another country. Yeah, right, who was the secondary coach.
1:48:51Joshua Lee: Yeah, he was originally from from a foreign country, not Brazil, but in the southern part of the world. Yes. Um, Gabriel. And, um, I think he’s French, actually. So anyway, yeah, the therapeutic spiral model is more clinical trauma-based, but bringing elements of that into the game plan really helps to support men in their journey, right? And we got a chance to tell again the subjective truth of their narrative in action, where others get to play roles in their lives. Mm-hmm. Um, and I think the last thing I just want to share, um, is that in terms of creation, being creative, and, and creating products. I am working on a social-emotional learning curriculum that -- Oh yeah. Features The Game Plan. And, you know, there’s negative press out there, you know, depending on what state you go to, really. They’ve sort of clumped it with critical race theory. I’m not sure how they jumped there, but You know, it’s really empowering our young people to take control and be responsible for their lives. But not only that, it is bringing my model, my sort of flavor of SEL is to empower young people to speak truth to power. That is, I can all day, every day, tell young people to be responsible for their lives, and they -- and I do, and they do. But when will someone start speaking to the system that creates these things in the first place, right? And so --
1:50:59Maceo: Absolutely.
1:51:00Joshua Lee: The Game Plan version of social-emotional learning will bring a flavor of learning about oneself, Right? Loving oneself and also empowering them to take care of themselves individually and look at what those systemic challenges are that have this be a reality for them in the first place. So it’s really looking at their agency and assets to, yeah, be responsible for self, be responsible, you know, for your -- how you show up inside a community. And let’s also impact the community in a way such that the people coming behind you don’t have to deal with this the way in which you’ve had to deal with it, right? And I would say, you know, summer to fall with that one of 2023. Mm-hmm. So I’m sticking my stake in the ground and making a declaration right now on the We Dem N-words, uh, coming from, from a generation where, um, you know, we don’t, we don’t say that, at least publicly. And I’ve personally never been someone to call somebody that. Um, but, uh, and I appreciate the context in which you, you have this, um, that the N-word rests in your -- in the title. Anyway, um, you know, staking the ground, it says that these products that I’m creating, including a game board for The Game Plan, will be out into the world, out into where people can appreciate and enjoy and learn themselves and others by the end of this year.
1:52:48Maceo: Hmm, I got that. Well, that sounds, that sounds huge. Like, like, that’s the first I’ve heard, everyone, of Joshua’s social-emotional learning curriculum he’s been developing on the backs of all the work that he’s done to inform his own perspective. So I think that’s super exciting. I think it’s going to make a world of difference. I first heard about social-emotional learning, I feel like, in college, and one of my friends, my friend Max, sharing about the high school that he went to where they had courses oriented around that. And I know he’s been a huge advocate for that. And I’m still, I would say, not as familiar as I would like to be, but I’ll be excited to reconnect with you and have you on here again when that’s really underway. when your book’s out as well, to really hear about what that’s looking like and think about how we as the We Them Niggas community can support you in disseminating that and have that be an active part of the education of young people of color, namely Black people. Because I do think it’s super worthwhile for us to have an understanding of our emotional lives and, like you say, agency and everything else that, that’s, that’s a significant part of being a person in the world. So thanks for being on the podcast. And I really love to actually, since you brought up the N-word, as we wrap up here, I’d really love to hear more about your relationship to the word nigga. And you don’t say it, that’s kind of your context. I heard you just say that. And I appreciate that you appreciate the context in which I have it for this, but I’d love to hear your perspective on the word as an older African American man.
1:54:10Joshua Lee: Yeah, so, you know, being African-centered, you know, bringing a sense of, the culture and history of Africans in America, and also being a professional as I stand up in front of mostly white folks all the time in education, and even, you know, Black African American educators wearing African gear, right? And I sort of, you know, have -- adapted my own clothing style, adopted a, you know, one of a mixture of professional and cultural wear, right? And it’s something as simple as, you know, there’s this shirt that I bought that I want to embellish, or jacket that I want to embellish with some some kente cloth or mud cloth, right? And so I have a seamstress friend who I just take her the elements and she works magic with them, right? And so there is a notion for me and my come from that blends both the professional and the cultural and being able to stand in my own authority in front of others who, you know, may see me in a particular way, but I’m able to relate to them nonetheless. And the use of the word, of the N-word, is counter to what I believe we as Africans in America are about. are about, right? And I come from a time when, you know, the N-word was used against us. And we fought back by being, you know, embedding ourselves into the systems of, you know, education and government and, you know, society, wholeheartedly participating. And so, you know, a nigger is someone who Um, you know, doesn’t believe that he can stand inside of those spaces wearing African gear, you know, and has a certain way of being in the world that, um -- And again, this is how I was, I was raised to be better than, than a white person, 110%, you know. That was sort of a rule. You got to be the 100 You know, play the 110% game, right? Not just being equal to, but surpassing the expectations and, you know, in production and quality and care of how you sort of executed your job. So that’s where I come from. And it’s all contextual, right? It’s all You know, we have as a people been able to take the worst of what was given to us and turn it into something wonderful and powerful, you know, such as pot liquor. You know, I don’t know if you’re familiar with that, but it is the,
1:57:43Maceo: you
1:57:43Joshua Lee: know, we weren’t -- What’s that? It’s the juice from the greens that were cooked, right? We weren’t able to eat you know, the certain things that, you know, the white owners ate, but we found a way to benefit from and just work magic with the scraps we were given, so to speak, right? Mm-hmm. And so they called it pot liquor. It is the essence of the meat and the fat in the meal, right? And so that became something that would have ordinarily been thrown away that has the nutrients and nutritional value that was needed. We didn’t throw it away, we used it. We are able to, you know, work magic with little. And so that’s my idea of it. Yeah.
1:58:43Maceo: I got that. And so what, what leaves you appreciative of the context I’m using the word in, I guess, and, uh, despite your own -- I guess relationship’s the word.
1:58:53Joshua Lee: Yeah, it is. So I, I know you, and I know, um, you shared with me before what it was all about. And for me to be on this, this podcast with that title really says who you are and who you are for me. You know, you’re a young man who has a certain -- I think you have a deep consciousness and awareness that has you doing great things in the world, such as this podcast. And even in the face of that word, that the N-word that has historically been derogative in this society, you are putting it on you know, sort of a, uh, say a pedestal, but a, um, you know, in a position that when this thing blows up, your podcast, that people have to contend with that, right? Mm-hmm. And there are others who, you know, there are folks on both sides, white folks, Black folks, uh, who will say, see the name and go, oh, hell no, I’m not gonna touch that with a 10-foot pole, but there are others who will endeavor to go deep and go beyond the title, which I believe, you know, people who are curious about whatever in the world and who can sort of withstand the tide of going in a particular -- following the, you know, the masses and go, oh, wait a minute. there’s something deeper here, right? Let me be curious, be patient enough to be curious and explore, um, and uncover what this really is about, right? Mm-hmm. I think where, where we lack that as a society is judging on face cover, you know, who and what people are and what things are about. and not taking the time to go beyond the soundbite of, of, um, you know, what this is, what this might be, you know, just sort of digging into it. I’m reminded of meeting Daryl Davis. Daryl Davis, um,
2:01:13Maceo: he came and spoke at my, at my college. He like worked with the Klansmen.
2:01:17Joshua Lee: Yeah.
2:01:19Maceo: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
2:01:20Joshua Lee: You know, a Black man, um, he lives in Silver Spring, Maryland. I went to his home, and it’s true that he has -- he could open up a museum of all the paraphernalia he, he received from former KKK and white nationalist folks. But here’s the deal, he was curious enough to have an encounter with a known, documented, revered grand wizard of the freaking KKK, uh, decades ago, right? And his curiosity, just by his, his mere curiosity, allowed them to form a relationship. And as the story goes, if I can recall correctly, he said that, oh my goodness, I, I, um, and this is -- I don’t know the, the Grand Wizard dude’s name, but he was like, I’ve never been listened to in this way before, particularly by a Black person who, uh, was reared and raised to hate Right. But he’s not responding to that. He’s curious about me as an individual. And that allowed him to shift something within himself fundamentally, such that he declared he was giving up his robe, giving up his -- and denouncing that kind of lifestyle. What does it take to be able to empathize with someone To, to the degree that they alter who they know themselves to be. Man, that takes courage. That takes, um, you know, just the tenacity and love for humanity. Because he was like, how can you judge me and you don’t even know me? Well, I’m gonna take some time. I’m gonna, you know, take this time to get to know -- for you to get to know me. But first, as Stephen Covey says, seek to understand, then to be understood secondly. Right? So, um, I think we need more of that to, um, bridge the divide in this country. You know, I was appalled, um, last 2 nights ago listening and watching the presidential --
2:03:54Maceo: State of the Union.
2:03:54Joshua Lee: Yeah, State of the Union, right? Like this. And you all are representing us as a society. Um, so yeah, anyway, um, bringing a sense of, um, that’s -- and I think that’s who you represent. That’s, that, that’s who I think you -- what you are about, bridging those gaps in the world. And I just, um, honor you as a young person and Just being in the energy of you all, it’s just been a plum pleasing pleasure as, you know, a 56-year-old, you know, Black man in America and being able to share my, you know, narrative and wisdom with you all. And I think you’re hungry and you’re humble and -- just trying to -- I can’t say I’m totally unlike you all when I was your age trying to figure stuff out. I have these expectations. I had a, you know, my first child when I was in school, and I had the help of family to help me financially support her. And, you know, came home and, you know, picked up the mantle of being a father full-time. And, you know, so I have those life experiences. experiences. And just being able to share those things with you, I’m blessed, man, and honored, and look forward to all the great and wonderful things you and the others are going to be doing out in the world.
2:05:26Maceo: Oh my God, I really appreciate that acknowledgment, and I really appreciate you being on the podcast and explaining what has to be on the podcast in spite of your reservations. Like, I do really hearing you talk about like the, the, the word nigger, um, and the like the context of like then understanding and looking for understanding as opposed to being understood. And I really have it like, like when, when I really became attached to the word nigga, it was when I heard -- and I said this before in the podcast -- but this rapper, his name is YBN Namir. He was like a moment, a moment of fame. He’s no longer in the, in the, in the fame light as a rapper. He was a one-hit wonder, as some say, but He said, I’m that nigga, I won’t ever change. And as we’ve talked about, like, young men of color, I think the notion that there’s a lot to grapple with, to make sense of, and inside a context where maybe the world doesn’t understand you and isn’t really making things make sense for you, I think that’s really, like, why I take pride in it so much. It’s because it’s like, as I negotiate and try to make sense of my circumstances, which really aren’t, like, made -- like, laid bare for me in any, like, in any way whatsoever, whether it’s in my classrooms, whether it’s in my relationships with my family, whether it’s in -- my relationships with people who just aren’t like me. I think no one can really help me understand my situation, my relationship to myself, to the world, and to society at large. But I’m really interested in having conversations that help us to unpack our collective situation as people inside like a world where we’re all individually playing games, where we have communities playing games, and where we’re never really like made to stop and be in conversation about all the different games simultaneously going on, you know, shaping the way the future looks for all of us. And I’m really interested in bringing those conversations to a collective light so that we do have access, we do have a say really in how the games that impact us are unfolding. Like, that’s really what I’m up to, what I’m interested in. So I really appreciate you being here and having a say in how this unfolds and really getting me present to what it means for you to see me taking this on and to be a participant and contributor to the contribution that I would like this to be to people around the world who get to really be present to what’s going on in the world right now. But ideally also in the future, it won’t be me having these episodes, hosting them, but somebody else who similarly is value-aligned and committed to making sure that we can understand one another, understand ourselves, understand our collective situations, that we can really have the agency that we ought to have and that we want to have so we can really win. Mm-hmm.
2:07:55Joshua Lee: Ashé to that.
2:08:00Maceo: Yeah. Thank you so much, Joshua, for your contributions to me personally, um, through coaching when I was working over the summer. Um, but also to the contributions you’ve had to my friend group doing group coaching with other college students, your grandson included. I really enjoyed getting to know him and getting to know the other people you contribute to. Um, as well, when we came to your certification, it was really powerful to see the young people that show up, um, to be contributed to by you. And really, I think really reflects that we do have a great admiration for you and appreciation for you. Um, Um, and yeah, just thank you so much. And I’m really excited for people to hear this episode and get present to who we both are for others, because I think we’re both some inspiring figures. I like to think so.
2:08:33Joshua Lee: All right, awesome.
2:08:35Maceo: Oh yeah, and that’s a wrap, everyone. So thanks for coming to another episode of the We Them Niggas podcast. Do you have anything else to say, Joshua? I don’t want to just cut you off.
2:08:44Joshua Lee: Oh no, just, um, take the -- take the time and opportunity to get to know people beyond the labels, beyond the monikers, beyond the, the titles, right? Um, you will find their humanity if you endeavor to look for it.
2:09:02Maceo: Yeah, let’s be patient and let’s be present with one another.
2:09:05Joshua Lee: Yeah.
2:09:06Maceo: So thank you everyone for coming and listening, and I hope you have a wonderful day. As Joshua likes to say, be great.
2:09:12Joshua Lee: Awesome.
