Talking DAOs

0:00Talking down the channel a little bit. Maceo, you want to kick us off? We’re here with The Zabal Presents Better Calls All. We’re out here. We’re doing it. We’re here with V. James from MWA. I met James from Bitcoin Pizza Day a year ago, two years ago. It’s pretty crazy. We’re coming up in a week and a half on two years knowing each other, man. and you’re building this like DAO tooling platform you were trying to get me to use and understand and you know I just know Zal is like a DAO nerd who’s into governance and all the things that you’re doing I think he’ll be a real use case set of eyes who’s game to be in your nitty-gritty more than me so I wanted to invite you on here today and I appreciate you just being game to come by and let us unpack what you’re doing and unpack some of your wisdom and knowledge you are the you are the god AI embodied thank you thank you

1:00Do you want to introduce yourself? Yeah, so my name is James. I’ve been in this space for about six years. You know, it’s kind of crazy that I don’t have like AI psychosis from being in here so long or crypto psychosis and schizophrenia because of the illusionary nature of the money and just the ideologies that come with these tools. and I’ve just been here like I’ve been institutionalized by crypto and it’s it’s it’s it’s it’s not institutionalized. What do you mean? Like define that a little bit like I don’t know if I understand what you’re saying. Speaking in soliloquy, prison cells, my prison cells are built out of like Bitcoin and Ethereum and blockchain law, it’s an ERC-20s, it’s a contract, I didn’t know that creating this blockchain account was a contract, a smart contract, and that contract is a length of time that has barred me in here, so I’m stuck here, I’m stuck here with all you guys.

2:07Okay, and so you’re being held captive, so this is the school to blockchain pipeline? Yeah, well, we’re kind of like in, we’re all cellmates in prison together No, I feel like we’re on a slave ship on our way to prosperity No, we’re locked in We’re a card for those winnings, that’s the American dream Locked in, double entendre So, like, we’re literally, like, in this digital space Like, we’re probably all not leaving blockchain and crypto, right? So, Zal, is this what you thought it would be? No, it’s not But I mean, I just, I want to hear this down too Like, I get the perspective, like, and I love it

2:42Like you said, I’m a DAO nerd So I like the perspective I would disagree with it personally But I can see how people that are in it for longer Because I came in in 2023 2023 is when I came down the rabbit hole So I do get it I get the concept But I also feel like there’s so many different nuances So I’m excited I think there’s a lot of people who have left That I would still say I would still be friends with which i think kind of like is a little bit different than that right like there’s people who have quote unquote gotten out of it not died right like and like but like not doing this specific crypto thing anymore but still doing something relatable to what i again like what i’m personally doing where like i’m leveraging crypto as a tool where like we hopefully are being able to like we’re very focused on on chain music and like that’s where i’ve tried to dive as deep as i can um because i think there’s a lot of tools

3:48And I think there’s like a way of looking at it like that as a positive person and like try to look at things in a positive light. So that’s just like my perspective. Yeah. Yeah. He’s like, he says, Maceo always challenges me I mean, he wanted me to, he said he wanted me to say it, so Yeah, no, I like that But yeah So his take that the blockchain is jail and you’re like, well, this is my nuance take on this And also it doesn’t align with what I did, right? So it’s like, I feel like that’s, uh, that’s also like that personal ego, right? And everyone

4:39No, but I appreciate you not letting us spread misinformation. I agree with you, Saul

4:45Oh my gosh, yo, James, you’re funny, bro Lock in, twin I think that it’s crazy that we’re in an era where streamers can be talking to the AI Like, I’m going to give the AI this transcript, right? So I’m like, AI, wasn’t that funny? And maybe it’ll answer me, like, in the notes afterwards Actually, AI definitely answered me in the notes afterwards, right? And now I can actually see it respond to me later on Isn’t that kind of cool? Does AI have a sense of humor?

5:15It’s only job is to validate my ego So if it’s mean to me, I fire it and I buy it Oh yeah, the psychopathy or whatever that word is called Yeah, but Drew, I’m curious to hear What’s your question for him about his DAO platform? How would you advise him to start his pitch?

5:36Is Drew here? I don’t see his square Oh shit, my bad He bumped on and off Let’s listen to the sound of my voice

5:49I like him enjoying the mild chaos, but I feel like this is a personality episode, that’s what I already got Yeah, he had to refresh, so now he’s in here, I don’t know Wait, are we missing the guest in question? Or he’s still here? No, he’s here, you were missing, but you didn’t miss anything important, though We were just talking about, like, that was a sitcom part of the episode We’re back real time now That was sponsored by Mental Health Academy And now we’re going into There’s no sponsorship, he didn’t give me any money But we’re here, and Drew What’s your first question about Mental Health Academy?

6:29Mental Health Academy?

6:33This is a tool for DAOs? Yeah So it’s a It’s like a harness It’s like a harness for DAOs A harness, okay What does that mean?

6:48Are you familiar with, like, AI harnesses, like Hermes agents? Yeah, I am Okay, so it’s like a harness Like you’re building the infrastructure around for the ecosystem to thrive in A typical DAO, for the most part, what we’ve mostly seen Which you guys are probably used to, is a contract And it’s going to be, like, a website And there’s going to be voting And there’s going to be, you know, treasury things going on But that’s mostly just a contract on a website So a harness actually includes the ecosystem So like the incentives, the mechanisms, the things that you think are fun And the boundaries into which you are moving inside of that biome

7:28Was this, Maceo, you sent me that something called firebases.ai Is that sort of a similar concept?

7:41You’re muted, Maceo I said that was bonfires, and I can’t really tell you Bonfires, okay Okay. Are you familiar with Aragon? Is it sort of like a DAO OS type of idea? So you know Aragon. So Aragon, again, is kind of just the contract side of it. I wouldn’t consider them a harness. They’re mostly a law firm for a DAO token. Okay. It has the infrastructure to get and communicate it, but it doesn’t have the incentive alignments. It doesn’t have the spending thesis. So, let’s say we understand DAO harnesses. When you say harness, what exactly are you adding in in utility leveraging AI agents with DAOs? I’m very curious because it’s definitely a sphere I’ve dabbled in and want to research more about. So, I’m curious what you’ve built.

8:34Drew, I don’t know if you saw, but it’s all just stood up and locked in. Who? There’s a new person? You know, same person. He just he just locked in and then he and then he asserted his question. The floor is yours, James.

8:48Okay. What was the question again? Just like what specifically are you doing for DAOs, right? Like with AI, what is the AI agent harness going to give you DAO beneficial than like a smart, you’re saying like most are smart contracts, right? What is yours in addition to that with AI? So really our harness and our ecosystem is designed around mental health, wellness, and education. So activities and stuff around the platform are utilizing DAOs, like the primitive and infrastructure, but the incentives and features of the token and economics inside is geared towards edutainment, which is going to be like entertainment that’s featuring mental wellness, health, education, all those things.

9:36How, um, how’d you start building this? Like, what made, what’s the inspiration? Um, I have a lot of student debt, you know, college is super expensive, and also capitalism, you know, like, it’s inflation, it’s hard to get jobs. We’re in competition with a lot of people who are our neighbors, you know, we’re in competition with a lot of people who are in the same jobs as us. You know, there’s people right now, like, backstabbing themselves at work because they’re afraid that they’re all going to get cut because of AI, because of layoffs. And it kind of becomes this performative like PVP battle, the same that we see in tokens.

10:13You know, people call tokens PVP battles all the time. That contract, that ERC contract, that length of time is the same as your work contract and your employer. And during that contract, you’re trying to the best of your ability not to lose that contract because that is giving you life force, that is giving you capital to survive. So ultimately, my ideology for using these tools is to create an ecosystem rather than a top-down infrastructure tool. An ecosystem where the value is not top-down. And a lot of people say this when they’re speaking about DAOs. But the way that they actually implement them and the way that we’ve seen them implemented historically has been reminiscent of top-down businesses. Just because these tools are so new that people didn’t have the time to really get domain mastery over these tools before they attributed their ideology. So when we look at crypto and we look at the fallacies and problems with crypto...

11:19No, just wait I’m sorry Just wait, wait, wait So when we look, I just want to explain why the tool is broken And why we have these bad values of it The token is, the tool is a little bad Because when crypto and stuff became popular

11:38Which communities made it popular? Marketing culture, capitalism culture, or Wall Street That’s, I can make a lot of money with crypto That’s usually what brings people in But That Financial Mechanism Is Systemically Capitalism It Is Systemically The American Kind Of Like Hyper-Optimized Marketing Of The Tool Rather Than Complete Understanding And Domain Expertise Sorry, My Bad But What Was Your Question You Said? No, No, No I Mean, Zol Was Asking You A Question You Have Something You Wanted To Respond To That Zol? I’ve Made A Lot Of Different Things But It Was Your Question Now I’m Curious I Mean My Question Was like how does this like how does a progressive decentralization like does that have to do with what you’re talking about like top-down not top-down bottom-up like yeah that’s I was kind of asking like how that fits into what you’re saying and then a second question would be like so I would love for you to ask Zal about what he’s doing and for Zal to finish that conversation understanding how he would use what you’re building and understanding if you would want to I think that would be that would be interesting case study because I’m confused.

12:50Yeah, I got you. So progressive decentralization, what we’re doing for progressive decentralization is trying to bring more clarity in how the tool should be used and more proper, like clear A, B, like goal setting for how someone would interact with a DAO and tool other than writing a proposal and kind of begging and dancing to get funding the same way it’s historically been throughout time in both academia and VCs and funding throughout the history of time. So, Zao, you’re building culture It’s Zao, it’s like DAO with a Z So, like, you could probably use a harness or something like this and borrow this ideology How, if you, is Zao a DAO?

13:34Yes and no Working on becoming a DAO, also figuring out the definition of a DAO Because I don’t think people have defined it yet So essentially what we do differently than most DAOs is that for our governance tokens, we use illiquid soulbound tokens. So instead of tying our governance to financial capital, we tie it to social capital instead and have our people that join in our weekly community meetings essentially able to earn that social capital by coming in, sharing what they’ve worked on to share and participate in the ecosystem to make it better this week. And then they do that in a group of six, and that group of six reaches consensus on who’s done the most, second, most, third, most, fourth, most, fifth, most, sixth, most, to forward the ecosystem. And each one of those individuals gets a certain amount of points based on a Fibonacci curve. And essentially, it is our way of progressively decentralizing every single week.

14:37That’s what we’re doing to do that There’s many different ways that we are a DAO, many different ways that we aren’t a DAO. One, we don’t have like a treasury as the Zao as a whole. It’s more of an incubator of individuals and those individuals create projects and those projects can go and do whatever they want with that. But as the Zao, we don’t have a treasury. And like I said earlier, our governance is not tied to a liquid token. So it’s a little bit different in that aspect. So social capital, how is that, do you still face the same constraint of like bottlenecking when it comes to voting? Are you guys voting on things? How is that process?

15:18That’s why it’s not a doubt. It’s just me as a leader bringing it forward to community. And one of our past guests actually advised me unbelievably far against it and even said like, don’t build a doubt, build a community. And I’ve been thinking more, I’m leveraging the ability to query my community on different ideas I have that I want to manifest And if other people want to do that and join in, they’re welcome to But for now, it’s a tool that I’m going to continue using and try and show more of it off Because a lot of it is tribal knowledge, to be honest with you

15:52Where it’s like a lot of it’s just in my head that isn’t well documented It is in various places over the internet, but it needs to be in one place It’s like, again, I’ve been working on that in many different capacities, but I think there’s a lot of benefit to the documentation side of it. So that’s where I’m at.

16:11Okay. Okay. So it’s like, it’s like you, you, you like the DAO, you like the ideology of the DAO and you’re implementing it, but in a way that’s very kind of like easy to get into like low cost and something that’s like, you know, you kind of have like, yeah, you’re in a decent It’s focused for artists and musicians and they’re not too worried about the decentralization I created a Discord bot to help create the consensus process and a community that’s upstream of us created the concept and had previously been on Telegram and I had that as a friction point because we were already meeting in Discord. So I had to continue from our meeting in Discord to being able to vote in Discord as well. And then they’ve actually created a way to push that vote on change.

17:02as well. So we technically vote every week using the consensus process. And I have a great time doing that, but it is mostly just me pushing things through, which is okay right now, but ultimately not the goal. Yeah. I had that in the early days when I used Aragon. I was looking, researching for as many tools as I could find. I’ll use Aragon. And one of the hardest things was is really getting people to vote. When people talk about decentralized autonomous organization, we actually think that autonomous should be more AI. You should have AI voting against you. And then we had this discussion and we got into the game theory of it. Can people

17:45manipulate the AI? Can you use tokens to manipulate the AI’s outcome in the proposal process? How will the AI attribute its votes towards it? Is it enough to be scary and have people, you know, like a little bit excited or fearful enough to continue voting and making sure the AI doesn’t do stuff? Can the AI scam people, right? It’s kind of like you have like all these questions when you try to integrate AI. So we actually sat with that and we did like a lot of game theory. And what we came up with was that it can be used as a tool for fun, but it’s just not

18:21And I think a lot of people say this for AI, like generally around, it’s a great tool, but the gradient descent, you know, it’s generalizing like a percentage of which tokens, which are equal to numbers that you want, and it’s giving the most probable ones, and that’s very easily game, so it’s not there yet. Even with fine-tuning and stuff, we can get there, but it’s just kind of not there yet But we still think it’s like an interesting part to add into the integration If it can alleviate some of that top-down stuff So we did make a new system, we made a tripartite system So we actually split the DAO into two sectors

19:00And one is a community sector and another one is a voted-in sector of like one-third or one-fifth of the community size in order to split the high-level decisions. Like example, Zao has like $5 million. I’m sure you don’t want to just start decentralizing that and just like getting a whole bunch of people into the community because they’re going to rally and they’re probably going to spend that money in ways that you wouldn’t. That’s kind of how it works is It actually prevents that because new people can only get, there’s only ever X amount of respect distributed through a day. So even if more people are coming in, they can’t capture the DAO because we’ve built it into the system of over time leveraging illiquid soulbound tokens.

19:54So that is definitely a part But the community that is, again, above ours Which has created a lot of some of the tooling Has their own tripartite system Where they leverage some of the respect tooling To vote in counselors that help actually push things across Where, you know, you’re not actually having everyone choose everything So I can totally understand that If I ever push a Weedin Media token I’m going to eardrop some to all your respect holders is all. You should. I see. So you get introduction points for introducing yourself. So you, you know, you start on a camera, I meet people. So I got 10 points today for just hopping in and turning my

20:33camera on. And if I write an article or something about it, I can get 50, 10, 10 more points. Yeah. But that’s in the actual Zalphracto meetings for, for, for it. This is more just a live stream that Maceo and I are doing. But we do those on Mondays at 6 PM on my own. And then over For the last month or so, two months, I’ve perfected my fractal bot so that anyone can actually do it at any time. So as long as we have a group of four people, four is the minimum. At any time people can participate, but we have the most active at the time that I have

21:10scheduled as our main time, which is Mondays at 6pm Eastern on Discord. So we kind of have a way to have it more autonomous and that’s kind of what I built into it. that anyone can like schedule it for any time and only certain you can only earn respect once a week. But so it’s like we had one more person, which like Drew is here and we actually all share what we’re working on this week. Then we could do that. That’s participating in the actual game, essentially. OK, so if I share something like if I share some slide decks or something, I get like some points.

21:46If we do it in a group of four and then vote on it after. Yeah.

21:52Four or more And then it’s groups of six After six Okay, okay I get it, so your scaffolding steps up Yeah, it’s fractally set up So that essentially if you have Let’s say 20 people You can have four or five different groups Well, I guess five different groups I have a question now Four different groups yeah what’s your question do you understand how you would use his tools all or do you understand I have a concept but I think I just need to play with it like I’m a demo person like I like trying things out I can see the value for sure what you’re saying I definitely could use it I’m curious the actual implementation yeah I would love to if you want to share your screen I’ll pull it up okay yeah because essentially there’s things that are there that I’ve wanted to build

22:51But I haven’t had time to build, so I find value in finding other people who’ve built those concepts out and are willing to make it easily and upgradable. So I’m curious what you’re working on, where your mind’s at, because I like a lot of the ideology behind it. I have my own specific one, because again, we’ve been touching the crypto space with art and music, so it’s been a little bit of a specific thing.

23:23Do you see my screen? Yes, sir. Okay, so Micro University for community rewards learning.

23:35I like that.

23:39Yeah, had to tweak it a little bit based on some great feedback I got.

23:46Decentralized science. So we’re really in a DeSci space, so like not just DAO tooling, but like us specifically. So we are open source, so someone could use the Arnest as a system. Oh, okay, sick. Yeah, that was one of my questions, but I don’t. Very interesting, so yeah, I would love to just see the github and play around with it, that’s like where I’m at already, so that’s cool

24:10So this is our point system, ecosystem, you have shard, you have votes, and you have USD, and ideally you can kind of get a feel for where everything is in this platform, and if not, you can ask the agent So how does Zal get on here, how do we get Zal, I want Zal to share his screen to be exploring both of his Zal on here This is me in my orchestrator mode I’m in charge, and you’re in my sandbox What’s the name of that game, Gary’s Mod? I never played it I had it, but I barely, I played that shit like once or twice

24:46I’m like never So we have an agent, so we have a specified agent That’s basically just a rag model that you’ll see Like in other agents that are really fine-tuned For their ecosystem And you can speak to it through the shard system So we’re not really wasting our burn rating But we are going to get a NVIDIA Spark soon, so we’ll be able to even further fine tune those models here at home and then use that inference for free for the platform to power it. That’s really big. Compute and inference is really big in AI right now. But ultimately, you can see that you have the shards and the points here. So for us in our community, as it is mental

25:25wellness and education-based, it’s a 12-week seasonal course. And throughout the week, You have your weekly reads, you have your morning notes, and you have the missions that are every single week. And through these and through ceiling a week, every week. For example, I’ll just fill this in because this is like my test account. I have a question. Sure. So is Mint 12 Academy the thing that you’re really invested in or are you building DAO tooling or did you just build Mint 12 Academy and build tooling for yourself along the way?

26:04I think those are both the same because the harness and the infrastructure in here is for Mental Wealth Academy so primarily I am building for Mental Wealth Academy and for our goals of like decentralized science and health and mental wellness and things like that but ultimately the harness can be used by other people we just have to get to that stage where we’re like I guess selling that as a product, I don’t know what do you think?

26:32No, no, I’ve heard you kind of go back and forth and I just think you should stand on one because I feel like it gets confusing when you go back and forth and it’s not explicit and I just, I just kind of noticed that because I’m seeing you like, I’m like, okay, how would I use it? I should use it, right? I think you’re walking us through how you’re using it, but I’m like, I think it’s, yeah, I think it’s like one, I think there are two different things, like the two different layers of abstraction, right? And I think when they overlap because I think when it becomes more confusing.

27:02Yeah, so it’s, yeah, I like to stick into the decentralization and mental wellness lane just because that’s kind of what we’re building for So for even like with our blogs and stuff, like I’ve been writing on Paragraph for a long time, for like a couple, two or three years now I’ve been publishing on here, and you know, you’ll see everything from like how we’re designing the surveys to how we’re designing the ecosystem, ecosystem, entertainment in the digital world is kind of how we’re viewing entertainment in the digital world and how you earn the points and stuff like that. So everything from the secret plant from the beginning and 2004 to the edutainment and the game theory and the ecosystems for creative wellness that we’re building, all these ideologies, I’ve written about them extensively.

27:51defensively, and this is, and almost every story that I’ve told on here has come true so far, from the secret plan upwards, almost every single thing has come true, and I’ve been writing. Of the secret plan of what? The secret plan. What is, I’m sorry, I was trying to do what Maceo wanted me to do, and I was pulling it up, that’s what I’m working on here, I’m sorry. I appreciate that. I’m working, I’m working on it. He’s saying he’s like, you’re like a feature teller? I’m a seer, yeah, I see a little bit into the future, and I try to build for that future, I try to build for tomorrow

28:32Tell me about the future of my beloved stock, GameStop

28:40They tried to buy eBay recently, didn’t they? And I guess it didn’t go well Well, it depends on how you look at it, yeah So, yeah, I’d love to see what your thoughts are on that If you claim to be a seer, that’d be always my first question for any seer I’m good at prediction markets in stock, but I’m not good at just making a handful of trades Yeah, no, I’m not even talking about it as a trade, I’m just as a feeling, like energy Yeah, I have no idea, honestly, I’m sorry No, I get it, when you say that, what do you mean? What are the things you’ve predicted that have come true?

29:19So in, I guess, 2004, it might have been a little bit earlier than this because Paragraph does this sometimes reposted a date or made it earlier. But this was when I was working with Larry and learned Web3 DAO. And, you know, this was before AI. What year did you say? Huh? What year? 2024. But it was a little bit more earlier than that. I think Paragraph re-up. I made an edit to this and I think Paragraph changed it to the date that I made the edit and I think it’s actually a little bit more 2023 because I was in LearnWeb3DAO around 2021-2022 yeah so 2021-2022 I was with LearnWeb3DAO and that’s where I learned how solidity that’s where I learned development and all that stuff before AI came out so when AI came out it was just like a bionic upgrade on my arm you know it was like Naruto unlocking

30:19I just got like all these random fucking arms and I’m like making the fucking infinite Tsukuyomi and shit I use a lot of Naruto metaphors in philosophy and writing that I make as well So for example like the infinite Tsukuyomi is like god machines bending reality and predicting the future And creating ourselves for that future So this is kind of like where my mind is at most of the time for the project It’s very, it’s weird, I like being weird with it But ultimately I try to ground it in the foundation of a DAO, tools, simulations, game points, and things like that.

31:03That’s really, really, I mean, I think it’s crazy to see the journey you’ve been on and tooling evolve. I really think it’s cool. I really think it would be, I’m curious, what do you think about trying to have this be a product for people to do online schooling and stuff like that? like like like like what do you think about pitching those kinds of people to you to use your product as a service like enhance their existing number like remote. Yeah, I’ll be honest. I’m pretty uncertain about it just because I am not accredited school or university. When you do sign up for businesses and you do get a C-Corp, so my academy is a licensed C-Corp in Wyoming.

31:45Game, did sign a paper saying that we weren’t an education institute. So that’s something that we really can’t get into seriously, but we can step into it as the edutainment aspect. So that’s why I say edutainment and the point system, because when it’s a game and it’s fun and it’s game, that’s all it is. But the difference between an iOS game and a DAO game is that there’s community involved, that there’s real money involved in the ecosystem. And our goal really is to excavate that and stimulate that into the economy. So it’s just like interactive. I don’t know.

32:27Okay. Nathan, how’s it going over there for you, Z?

32:35I’ll tell you exactly what I took absolutely way too long to actually do. But I’m going to dive deeper in tonight to this. But essentially what I did was I grabbed the GitHub and I said, tell me more about this. I read through some of the docs myself, but I’m curious what my client’s going to find through that. So that’s what I’m doing, Maceo, here. I don’t have a crazy amount of time left, so I’m definitely going to rock this through, look through it a lot more because I think there’s a lot of really cool stuff here. Would love to tap in more, see how I can help and support you.

33:12That would kind of be my next and last question What’s the best way for someone to support you That has an organization That’s a DAO that Maceo is trying to lead me on To try the tooling What’s the best way for an organization like me After you’ve heard what we’ve been talking about To leverage your tooling Just use it Just use the platform I think that’s the biggest thing that crypto is missing Is for people to use the platform Because it’s like signing a needle in a stack What’s the easiest way to use the agent though? Like that’s what I’m trying to dive deeper into. Like if I want to start off myself.

33:50Sign up for the platform, make an account and it kind of guides you through it. And then if you ever need it, the agent is at the top right. So you just click the Ask Agent button and you ask your questions. It has all the knowledge and knowledge base of the platform on it. I feel like once I set it up, I’m like official on a fishbowl on a conveyor belt. I don’t understand that analogy, but sure

34:18Okay, I will dive deeper into it, try it out I’m excited, there’s definitely good stuff here I’m very curious to dive deeper into this with you There’s definitely some cool stuff that I think you’ve been tapping into How long have you been working on this?

34:42Like starting to build it, let’s say, the software Not necessarily thinking about it Three years, BuildSpace, I’m trying to think of when BuildSpace was BuildSpace Season 4, Season 4, or Season 3 Actually, it was BuildSpace Season 3

35:02When was BuildSpace Season 3?

35:08This was when I really put my all, so April 2023 It was when I really put my all into designing the entire layout and Figma, making all the prototypes and interactions be sure it’s what we would do I have an idea What’s that? I’m going to see if I can play this with Wave Wars I’ve been playing around with Wave Wars now, so this could make it work But I just need to build it myself, I think, a little bit on that front But I also want to see like for my own sake, the platform. I think there’s just like a lot of things that I’ve been thinking about for Wave Wars that could go really well here that I haven’t like pulled the trigger on making a DAO for it because there’s a lot of reasons why not then to do it. And I think this is going to give me some more reasons to it. So that’s like the be all in all goal. It would be really cool to use this in Wave Wars.

36:12But that takes way more sign-offs than the Zao or Zabal or anything that I do So, yeah I think there’s a lot of cool things Do you use Claude to explore the design space for DAO tooling for your stuff? Like you’ll go on like a get-and-pull stuff and then assess Like train your Claude to understand what kind of mechanisms you could develop And then explore how you would iterate it based on what you’re doing? I have all my stuff open-sourced on bettercallzall.com Bettercallzall.com Better Call Zaul’s GitHub and what I’ve done is I’m building one specific repo called the Zaul OS as my dev space of like trying a crazy amount of things and then one of those things is a skill for me in Claude where I can just do the dash Zaul research on something which I didn’t do on this I’m just learning about it personally like but that’s gonna look through all my research documents that I’ve already created look through my code base currently and then go online before like researching the thing I

37:11type in after it so that and then add it after it’s researched it as a new research doc. So even if it doesn’t search online for anything and it’s just like compiling a list of all my resources together, it also is like the start of action item plans and like creating things like that. But also it’s like for the future, I can always go back and like dive deeper into the learning. So it’s more like it can teach itself, but like you have to build like structures for it. So that’s that’s the structure I built. Badass AI, read this and make no mistakes Tell me in one paragraph

37:46And that’s going to be the description for this video Badman What’s it called? Everything that happened in one sentence In our final minutes You got to freestyle, James No

38:02No That’s hilarious You want to do a monologue or a speech? I’m not a rapper You want to do a monologue or a speech? Improv Improv, one man, improv monologue, there you go, you got this

38:20I’m like putting on the spot, like I really don’t even know Ever seen Def Jam poetry? You could be like Def Jam poetry

38:28No, I don’t, I don’t know the reference What about you all? Absolutely not Hear thee, hear thee I could, I could go hard in the paint, like if you needed me to But like, what, like what, what, if you do it first Hear thee, hear thee, my name be Maceo Today is May 13th, but it’s not a Friday, it’s a Wednesday Hear thee, hear thee, people of me yonder People of Mental Health Academy, the ZOW and We Them Media I bring all of ye together to hear a story about how on the Bitcoin Pizza Day 2026 You will go out and you will hunt down your $500 prize

39:09You will put your best foot forward and you will shoot content Henceforth, in pursuit of a $500 bounty

39:25I feel like I’m in an episode of The Office

39:37I can’t do a character, I don’t do characters, so I’m just going to talk But yeah, so this was an awesome stream, thanks for popping in guys That’s not a monologue, can I do a part of it? I’m going, monologue means you’re quiet It means so low, performer Listen, everyone else is listening Understood? So Essentially, how this is gonna go James, honestly, really Interesting platform I’m excited to dive in deeper with you What’s the best way to connect? I see Email, email is the best way Email? Yeah, I’m a traditional Email person Perfect, amazing And then you’re cool, would you have a calendar Of sorts? If I was to dive deeper

40:20Into this and then need support

40:24Well, yeah, I kind of ended it because I got distracted

40:34Okay, cool, email And yeah, no, I’m honestly really interested in how we can use this Maceo did a wonderful job of picking the right candidate for just like sharing I always like seeing what people do and then I’ve seen a lot of different things that I wouldn’t even try to implement and this is something that I think can be unbelievably beneficial to some of the different platforms not only I’m making but then also partners are making so I’m going to definitely try it out and I’m excited to tap in with you more on how it works and how we’re playing around with it because some of these things are things

41:13that I’ve tried to play around with and build but just haven’t been successful So I’m excited to just toss this repo right at those things immediately and see, hey, what are the things we’re missing? Because there’s a lot of things that I just didn’t have the time and bandwidth to figure out. So I’m excited to see how we can use this and level it up. So, yeah. I would love to see a document that outlines what MW, what this thing does, once your cloud has told you. I think that... Yeah, can you read us a line of what it said? Sure. so the first was just telling me about the different key repos which honestly I figured I was looking at that through the readme myself so I honestly didn’t even run this out research command because I uh I didn’t I wasn’t thinking about it so now it’s gonna actually pull up make a research article uh about like looking through it I was more again like I was saying reading for myself so it was telling me that the org was created in 2024

42:16Jan 10th which was interesting and that makes sense with you think starting to I imagine you’ve started building it somewhere else on a different org when you had just started there in 2023 and then it’s just telling me about a bunch of these different repos yeah workflows blue review auto execute trade execute different things about calcium polymarket which are both things that would be interesting interesting for me to play around with agents, because I have, we have a music prediction market. So I’m curious to see what I could play this harness up against that, because we’ve been ideating for quite some time about an on-base AI agentic side of our Wave Wars

43:09trading league. And that is super possible with something like this, especially if we only let people create AI agents if they know about it. It’s not just brandos coming in, participating in the thing. Not that they couldn’t, but having AI agents customized for the in-person people. There’s a lot of things here that I think can be really perfect for Wave Wars specifically. And then some of those also line up really well with the Zao, which are really cool. I’m interested to see the mental wealth part of it and how that, How that is incorporated in the agent I understand training and stuff But what part of the agent is helping you with the mental health part?

44:00The Damon model So we have a research paper for a proposal And it’s a research report on just how we utilize it And how it’s different from other RAG models So basically it has like an unconscious layer and just like acts sporadically in thought on its own

44:23Very cool Randomness and chaoticness in any case study

44:34I have a final question

44:37Will you two contribute any money for a $500 pizza day warranty?

44:51And the bell is in No one will contribute money It’s okay We’re not stingy We’re just well invested in what we’re up to You’re saying in general?

45:01I’ll finish it off at the top 20. When you’re at 480, I’ll give you 20. Okay, smooth. Boom. That’s 20, bro. In my brain, that means we’re 20 up. I like that. Well, you can’t count until you’re at 480. That’s okay. I’m at like 370-something right now. Wait, you need to raise $500 for the pizza? No, we’re doing a video content bounty at $500, so people can win $500. We’re going to judge their content And essentially my goal is to bring out 50 content creators from around the world through Pizza DAO To show us their reporting chops, their content creator chops So the 500 is split between 50 people?

45:43No, 500 is given to one person that we subjectively choose, like it’s American Idol Sorry Will you guys choose me if I’m just like, hey guys, I know you Wait, I thought it was over I thought it was coming backstage before

46:03Do you have any last thoughts, Drew? I have to go, guys, also I missed half the podcast. You should watch it back. I think it would be fair for me to have last thoughts. I think you guys should just cut the pod on YouTube before I even come in. No, what are you talking about? I think the last seven minutes have been like dead air. Your face is punctuation, baby. Your face is punctuation. I guess, peace. Amen. And then cut. But thank you everybody for coming and watching us. Oh, you cut me. You cut me, not the pod. Drew gave $1 earlier today. Shout out to Drew. So what about you, James? Can we count on you to contribute to our pod?

46:47I’m currently fundraising myself right now. We have a fundraiser on Artisan going on. We’ve hit $18,000 out of our $33,000 goal. So if anybody is here... If anybody is showing on this stream, it’s me. I’m the guest. I’m the guest.

47:07All right, guys. Go support James on Artisan. Go support Mental Health Academy. Go donate money right now. Come and clip this so he can get more people to give money to him and empower the DAO tooling, the personal development. It goes straight into the ecosystem. That’s right, baby. You’re not funding James. You’re not funding, so there’s five funds still matching us. So your $1 could equal $4 for us. Education doesn’t work. He’s the solution. Come get it. Come get it. It’s hot now. It won’t be a year from now. Come get it while it’s hot. AI’s taking over. Are you trained?